Defensive use of 9mm on a Black Bear

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Random 8 said:
First hand account. Had to use my carry handgun on a black bear Friday evening. 9mm Fns, Hornady 124 xtp. 174lb live weight male, extremely agitated due to a shoulder flesh wound likely from another bear. Predatory attack on the neighbors dog. One head shot immobilized the bear, likely would have been fatal. 2 additional shots to the head and neck insured death and ceased all movement. All shots at approximately 25 yards. Was in a semi residential area with shooting prohibition.
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Random 8 said:
The bear was killing the family dog right in front of them. They were yelling and throwing firewood sticks at it, which is usually a pretty effective way to chase off a bear. Without a sidearm I would have done the same thing.

And the 25 yards part is why I practice frequently at longer distances.
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What was your background, and how much maneuvering did you have to do to have a clear shot?
 
Trouble can come to your back yard. The local town police took this picture of a black bear strolling by my garage door a few years ago. I live in a sleepy little development in a sleepy little town and carry my sleepy little Pico when my wife and I go for walks mainly to be ready to keep some rabid beast away from us. Crime is all but non-existent. Not sure I want to take on a bear with it.
bear-in-the-driveway.jpg
 
Couple of questions to answer, I'm not going to multi-quote, you know who I'm replying to. Had the option to keep the meat, but chose not to. The likely bear-inflicted wound on the right shoulder was rather nasty and infected. I didn't trust the meat to be of good quality. The DNR was going to take it to a local research center. This animal was rather skinny. He probably should have weighed in the low 200s. Still waiting on a biologists necropsy report, likely later in the week. Game warden suspected it was a 1 1/2 year old. The area is/was experiencing a drought following a late spring killing frost. Natural bear food is scarce. Bears, especially those living on the margins like my young male, are getting very aggressive and opportunistic in their search for food.

I was at a friend's neighbor's campfire sitting in a lawn chair when their dog (a young lab mix aprox 50 lbs) was ambush attacked at the edge of the firelight. Bear approached silently and upwind from the wooded rear lot (mature pine trees, mowed grass underneath) and pounced on the dog in what I could best describe as a cat-like manner, then started dragging the screaming dog back towards the heavy cover. Background was a steep, wooded uphill with considerable distance to the next dwelling. We used to occasionally shoot pistols there until the township passed an ordinance a couple years ago. I had the gun drawn immediately, but had to wait for the bear to get off the dog and face the group for a clear shot. Only maneuvering was to clear the chair and sidestep a large white pine for a clear angle.

I would have preferred a .357/158, my .41 blackhawk or a centerfire rifle, but I was wearing the 9mm not anticipating bears to be a greater threat than meth heads in the area. My experience with BBs has been some noise and aggressive action such as thrown objects scares them off.
 
I live in Montana and unfortunately right now my biggest sidearms are 9mm. Not ideal for Grizzlies but generally plenty for black bears. If I'm camping I usually have my Mossberg 500 loaded with Brenneke Green Lighting or Classic Magnum slugs. If I'm just out for a hike it's a 9mm loaded with 147gr +P hard cast and bear spray. Yeah, I want to get a .44 Mag or 10mm it's not exactly easy to find a particular firearm right now!
 
MaxP said:
Tim Sundles, the guy who made the ammo used is shocked on a regular basis that so many folks now believe that the 9mm is good bear medicine. The bear Phil shot went across his front giving him multiple shot opportunities. He might not have been so lucky had he been on the receiving end of the charge.
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Shoemaker has said that he was in a spot he'd never had any problems with or he'd have had something bigger. It worked out for him but of course he's an experienced guide and acted calmly under pressure. Better a steady hand with a 9mm than a panicky yokel with .454 Casull.
 
.455_Hunter said:
Funny how the forum has gone silent.

Somebody actually shoots a bear in a real scenario and it's crickets...

I guess theoretical discussions are more fun.
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It was a small black bear that was likely in poor health and no one was expecting to encounter bear. Hardly the same as going into/living in bear country and having a charging grizzly coming at you.
 
Random 8 said:
First hand account. Had to use my carry handgun on a black bear Friday evening. 9mm Fns, Hornady 124 xtp. 174lb live weight male, extremely agitated due to a shoulder flesh wound likely from another bear. Predatory attack on the neighbors dog. One head shot immobilized the bear, likely would have been fatal. 2 additional shots to the head and neck insured death and ceased all movement. All shots at approximately 25 yards. Was in a semi residential area with shooting prohibition. Shooting ruled justified by police and DNR. Sadly the dog didn't survive, but fortunately everyone with children can rest easier now. Moral of the story is always carry your handgun and know how to use it well. Never know when you'll have to use it in a challenging situation under pressure.
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Random 8 said:
I was at a friend's neighbor's campfire sitting in a lawn chair when their dog (a young lab mix aprox 50 lbs) was ambush attacked at the edge of the firelight. Bear approached silently and upwind from the wooded rear lot (mature pine trees, mowed grass underneath) and pounced on the dog in what I could best describe as a cat-like manner, then started dragging the screaming dog back towards the heavy cover.
I would have preferred a .357/158, my .41 blackhawk or a centerfire rifle, but I was wearing the 9mm not anticipating bears to be a greater threat than meth heads in the area. My experience with BBs has been some noise and aggressive action such as thrown objects scares them off.
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OP I agree with the moral of your story, try to encourage it myself.
In a "good area" trouble came to you (not what would be expected) and you had a pistol you could shoot well on you. (In a "decent" caliber)
:thumbup:
 
The XTP is a good choice for the job and sounds like it worked. I use XTPs and hard cast bullets in my woods loads in .40 S&W and 10mm. I also have 124gr XTPs in my 9mm carry gun right now.

Black bears are small out here, with the average size under 200lbs. I have never had to defend myself against one since they are usually quite shy. The one in the OP's story was obviously an anomaly and if it wasn't for the horrific death of the pup, would have been a happy ending.
 
Not copying the E-mail as it contains proprietary information. Got the necropsy back from the DNR biologist. Shoulder wound confirmed bear inflicted, estimated 1 week old. Running infection with some minor deep tissue necrosis. Partially encapsulated, would likely have healed in time. Animal was 1-2 years old. Weight 23% below median for age group in MN. No additional significant underlying health conditions. Stomach contents appeared to be garbage including AL foil, plastic and other passable foreign matter and herbaceous forage. One round penetrated skull behind eye socket into brain matter causing severe trauma. Second slug through and through damaging jugular and bruising spinal column and cerebellum.
 
IMO there isn't really much that can be inferred from this tale other than a CNS hit is probably going to do the job so long as the selected round is capable of getting past the protective structures (in this case, skull). I imagine it would likely be a different story if the bear was attacking a shooter who didn't have the luxury of placing well-aimed hits to the light switch.
 
azrocks said:
IMO there isn't really much that can be inferred from this tale other than a CNS hit is probably going to do the job so long as the selected round is capable of getting past the protective structures (in this case, skull). I imagine it would likely be a different story if the bear was attacking a shooter who didn't have the luxury of placing well-aimed hits to the light switch.
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Why would you imagine that? Well documented accounts where folks used 9MM’s against bear attacks are very consistent...with similar results. It not as if defenders couldn’t get off multiple in most circumstances.
 
Buzznrose said:
Why would you imagine that? Well documented accounts where folks used 9MM’s against bear attacks are very consistent...with similar results. It not as if defenders couldn’t get off multiple in most circumstances.
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If the only accounts you consider are those where 9mm wins, then consistency is baked into the equation.
Countless well documented accounts exist where human animals have been shot multiple times with little to no immediate effect. And those animals are handicapped by the ability to process the danger said wounds entail. I'd think the same general pattern would hold true - at a bare minimum - when applied to the totality of defensive shootings involving man-size+ carnivores.

I've personally had the misfortune to witness a small goat shot with a 9mm handgun. 6+ rounds of 147g black talons later, he was still running.
 
azrocks said:
If the only accounts you consider are those where 9mm wins, then consistency is baked into the equation.
Countless well documented accounts exist where human animals have been shot multiple times with little to no immediate effect. And those animals are handicapped by the ability to process the danger said wounds entail. I'd think the same general pattern would hold true - at a bare minimum - when applied to the totality of defensive shootings involving man-size+ carnivores.

I've personally had the misfortune to witness a small goat shot with a 9mm handgun. 6+ rounds of 147g black talons later, he was still running.
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I posted a link to this story earlier:

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz6F1j9Z23m

Is there something you can link to that counters this? In the context of this thread?
 
I don’t know how anyone can argue that the 9mm is good bear medicine (Black bear or brown bear). I would certainly rather have a 9mm than nothing, but it’s not good bear medicine. The OP proved he could place his shots well under duress and should be commended for it. CNS clearly ruled the day. The Phil Shoemaker incident is often cited by 9mm fans as well and I would bet the outcome would not have been the same f he had been the one getting charged. JMHO.
 
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