I suggest that you start learning lip readin.g
Nightstand Pistol
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AK103K
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A "machine pistol" covers a lot of things. The OP wasnt really specific about whether it had a stock or not, he said "machine pistol". If it doesnt have a stock, theres really no point, but most dont seem to understand that. And the reason why is pretty obvious I think.
"Experience" is the whole point too, and applies to anything and everything, not just specialty or more exotic guns. Just because you have something cool that the cool guys use, doesnt mean youre going to have the same results as them, no matter what it is, if you arent training like them, or close to it, to be proficient with it. I know a bunch of people who have all manner of cool, look-alike guns, and havent got 1000 rounds through them, and most probably dont have 500.
How many who keep a 12 ga by the bed have shot theirs that much in any kind of practice besides a couple of mags worth of full power loads at the range and said thats enough of that crap? Hurts, dont it? Wanna try my Shockwave?
The whole point of training and practice, is to be proficient with what it is you use, is it not? Yet, Im willing to bet, the majority here who carry a handgun, shoot it very little in regular, realistic practice (at least twice a month), and when they do, most of it doesnt go beyond trying to shoot tight groups on a bullseye target or maybe some cans or steel out in the yard.
So no matter what has been chosen, does it really matter what it is, if youre not willing to actually put the time and effort into it, to be reasonably good with it?
As far as cost goes too, things were not always as silly as what you see today. I paid $450 NIB for my HK94, and $350 to have Fleming to convert it to an MP5 back in 86. $800 total. Of course that was back before Ronnie signed the bill banning them for us lowly subjects, and why you have what you have today. I paid $225 NIB for my M11/9mm, and $800 for my MP40 (to add insult to injury, 10 years prior to that, you could buy surplus Thompson M1's for about $70, and a whole bunch of other stuff for not a whole lot more).
The week after Ronnie signed the bill, things jumped to three times that, and then continued to just spiral out of sight. I sold my very well used and abused MP5 when Obama got in, as I wasnt willing to risk losing the equity Id gained in it, to a swipe of a pen. Should have took the risk and waited. I sold it for a quick $15K (they were going for around $18-20K at the time). Today, last I looked, they were up around $30-35K.
Oh, and all sorts of ammo was dirt cheap for quite a good while back then too, and we shot the snot out of all sorts of things, with and without belts. 2000 round cases of Chinese 9mm was going for about $125, and 7.62x51 was $150/1000, 5.56 and 7.62x39 were dirt cheap, and even 50BMG was only $110/100, and those prices were even cheaper when you got together and bought in bulk.
Some of us were/are lucky enough to actually get to have a lot of regular trigger time on all sorts of things. Its just to bad that nowadays, most just have to guess what its like.
Aint it grand to be a good, law-abiding subject, and live in the "Land of the Free", where you cant be trusted with simple things?
Charlie Martinez
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Always willing to learn new things & maybe you can teach me, thanks for the suggestion.
But where's the problem? If you don't get terribly offended by my asking.
Any firearm fired indoors can cause permanent noise-induced hearing loss, and a short-barreled .357 Magnum is likely to do so with one shot.
JR24
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No, with children in the house the nightstand pistol serves as a one handed option to gather the kids and possibly bunker where I have a real rifle.
I can't see a machine pistol being useful in my circumstance. My 226 will do just fine.
I can't see a machine pistol being useful in my circumstance. My 226 will do just fine.
Charlie Martinez
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OK, I agree but my point was that the pistol/rifle caliber combo is (or seems to be) several times louder than the already terribly loud 357 Mag. I read that when under pressure of an emergency shooters don't hear muzzle blast. I don't think that is going to be the case with these new pistol sized AR's. In my younger days I fired a 357 Mag w/out ear protection (once) & it was painful but I was not deaf forever. These short barreled AR's are so loud they are uncomfortable even with good ear protection. To me even in the heat of battle that huge blast will impair the shooter's performance which is the most important element of a gun fight. .
That's a psychological phenomenon. The ear damage is physical, and it is permanent..
I would never fire a .357 on the house. My 9MM is bad enough. A .45 ACP is better.
bdickens
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Do you even know just what it is that Mr. Ayoob has said about reloads for SD? 'Cause it isn't anything close to what you seem to be suggesting.
That's nice. No offense, but what kind of lawyer? What's your specialty?
And since you are a lawyer, I'm pretty sure you know what you're doing here. I know I do. It's called moving the goalposts. We're not discussing defending oneself with a 9mm vs. a 12ga slug, We're discussing "normal" guns vs. full auto.
Convincing a jury that it was reasonable and prudent to hose down an assailant with a machine gun, that's what.
And spare me the lecture. I know about controlled bursts. You know about controlled bursts. We ALL know about controlled bursts. Most people don't. They only know what they see in the movies. It's hard enough to get the average person to wrap his head around the idea of having to shoot someone more than once, do you really think it won't be a much steeper uphill battle to convince them that it is OK to spray them down in a hail of automatic gunfire?
Yeah, I know. I know, you know, we all know. But you also gotta know that's how a prosecutor is gonna paint the picture.
OP
OP
el Godfather
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No I am not a criminal defense lawyer if that is what you are getting at. My work is in commercial transactions, but I know enough to defend myself if there is ever a need.
No one is lecturing anyone here. Sharing our own view points and you can disagree with them as much I can disagree with yours.
Having a Machine Pistol does not mean you “hose” down an intruder with spray of bullets - its an added option to semi mode if there is a need for full auto. You dont want or like MP more power to you. I like having the option to have whatever I can legally own.
And there is no shifting goalposts. It is just that if you end up being prosecuted the prosecutor will embellish upon your use of force.
Alex Clayton
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It' been a hell of a long time since I read the book. IIRC it was in his one called the Gravest Extreme, maybe, but again it's been decades. Again as I said he, (Mass) said something along the lines of using reloads "could be" a problem. Now if he never said this at all is what you are saying? Anyway over time this morphed into many claiming there were court cases where some DA used the loads as a "thing" against the shooter. This was re-told over the net for decades on many net forums. Many of the people saying this were so convinced it was true they would get over the top angry when told it was not true, just as it seems to have done you. <shrug>. In any case every time I read someone asking for anyone to cite a court case where this argument was used against a person who used a gun to defend themselves no one could ever find one. So again not sure what I said that set you off, I made no direct quote of the man, I said he said "something along the line of re loads could" be a problem. I do remember in one of his books he said to scream POLICE if you have to draw. Then saying after to say you were screaming for someone to call Police. Again I personally thought this was poor tactic. To each his own on stuff Mass wrote in his books. He had and still has quite a following.
Of course any net forum is a poor place to take any kind of legal advice. What I or anyone else says is worth exactly what readers are paying for it, zero. Many sadly have all kinds of "ideas" of what should or could happen if someone has to use a gun for defense. Many get VERY excited if they read something they do not like. Again big shrug from me. Most people reading the net will go their entire life and never need to shoot anyone. For the unlucky few who do have to I have always warned the best advice after a shoot is keep your yap shut. When you call 911 keep it short and to the point. That call is recorded. Do not try to plead your case to the operator. Every time I have read of someone who used a gun for defense who had legal troubles after it was their mouth that got them in hot water. That is assuming it "sounded like" a good shoot to begin with. Again my advice is worth exactly what others are paying for it. If it upsets some? Easy to just not read it I would think.
Alex Clayton
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I have wondered about that too, the bast. I LOVE my AR pistols in Pistol caliber but, last time someone was shooting next to me at the indoor with one in .223 I thought they had some kind of huge magnum. I was wearing plugs with muffs over them. The blast was amazing. When I saw the brass I realized it was "just a 223" I thought damn what must that sound like with no muffs? Kind of reminded me of when Ruger made those pistols in .30 Carbine. They had a muzzle blast that was amazing for the little cartridge. I do now keep a couple sets of the electronic muff around. So if I have time I can slap a set on before I check what's going bump at night. Since they enhance my hearing and will block the blast.
Garandimal
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In my home...?
Precise, accurate, and effective fire, ...the fewer the better.
1911-A1 .45 ACP. (backed up by a pump 12 ga. w/ Flight-Control Buckshot.)
GR
Precise, accurate, and effective fire, ...the fewer the better.
1911-A1 .45 ACP. (backed up by a pump 12 ga. w/ Flight-Control Buckshot.)
GR
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groundhog34
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A full auto would work well if you wanted to put holes in your roof.
AK103K
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I been to a lot of indoor, and outdoor ranges that dont allow any full auto, and their ceilings, and just about everything else were all shot to hell. So whats your point here?
Alex Clayton
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LOL, the place I go sure as hell shows how many "oops" happen all the time which is why I do not like to be there when it's busy. I would have to guess they must have some really good clips from the camera system that records the people back there. Walls used to be covered with some kind of commercial carpet. Every stall had huge furrows in it and no full auto here
They finally tore all the carpet down and just put diamond plate steel tiles on the walls. While back they took out the tables and replaced them with a rack that holds 3 metal pans. Idea being you could just tip them up to dump brass. Neat idea and of course the next time I went several of them have holes shot in them already. 
They long ago went to those paper target hangers that have folding corners to clip the paper too. They all get shot to hell. I took to bringing a roll of painters tape with me to hang a couple heavy paper targets in place to add my other targets too since often the holder is so shot to hell it no longer wants to hold.
OP
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el Godfather
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Buddy this is the narrative that the Anti have been trying so hard for over so many years to stereotype and demonize the use of weapons in general. Unfortunately, some people subconsciously fall in that trap. I fear that a few decades from now the scope of this stereotyping may broaden.
I advise/suggest/request that people focus more on training rather than believing everything they read on the internet: legal issues and social alike. There are great resources out there on internet, but there is also a lots of propaganda. Look at some countries around the world where people have lost or happily yielded there rights to own arms.
MPs from the get go are demonized like if they will shoot on their own and create a havoc. Its the person behind the weapon whose command or lack thereof on the contraption is in question.
Again, having an MP may give the advantage that is up to one’s discretion to avail or not depending on the situation. That said, one should choose a weapon he or she is most comfortable using may it be a MP, semi, revolver, rifle or even a baseball bat. Whatever you think you can best defend yourself, family, and property with.
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Trey Veston
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My literal nightstand gun is a S&W M&P40c equipped with a light. Took it to the range a couple of days ago since I hadn't shot it in a few years. It still worked.
My door gun recently got switched out from a 12ga pump to an SBC in 9mm.
The Extar holds 33 rounds vs. 6. It has a single-point sling so I can drop it and use both hands while still keeping it handy, and it also has a light. It's much lighter, more maneuverable, and a much better choice for a realistic home-defense scenario. I think it's the best choice for ME, in my quiet suburb.
Having fired full-auto weapons in the military, and having most recently fired my brother's SWAT team full-auto M16, I think using one for home defense is quite silly. Unless you are Scarface.
My door gun recently got switched out from a 12ga pump to an SBC in 9mm.
The Extar holds 33 rounds vs. 6. It has a single-point sling so I can drop it and use both hands while still keeping it handy, and it also has a light. It's much lighter, more maneuverable, and a much better choice for a realistic home-defense scenario. I think it's the best choice for ME, in my quiet suburb.
Having fired full-auto weapons in the military, and having most recently fired my brother's SWAT team full-auto M16, I think using one for home defense is quite silly. Unless you are Scarface.
bdickens
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I just thumbed through my copy of In the Gravest Extreme and the only mention of reloads I could find was on p. 125 where Mr. Ayoob mentions the "heavily handloaded ammo" kept in a .45 so as to operate a stiffer recoil spring (presumably installed as a child safety measure).
But no matter, that book came out 40 years ago and is chock full of ideas that are, shall we say, dated. Much more recently (2014), in Deadly Force he talks about the issue with handloads being, not that you will get hung for using them, but that if GSR evidence could be a factor in corroborating your side of the story it will be inadmissible. (p. 217)
In fact, time and time again, every time I see him recommend against using reloads for SD, his argument revolves around GSR evidence.
As far as the "ain't no case" BS: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-handloads-trivial.172213/page-6#post-2129976
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bdickens
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Like I said, I know that....
Alex Clayton
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Now that it's far easier to search the book he made the comment in that got it all started was "Combat Shooting".
Again he did not say what became a common "thing" on the net, that he had seen court cases where a D/A went after someone. Many just kept saying they "heard" and as it got re-told over and over it got to where a lot of people believed it to the point of no talking to them. Just like the ones who when told he said something about not using them also would not hear he ever said it. The problem that often comes up with things like this on the net is many get set in their idea of something and no longer want to hear it when told they got the wrong idea from someone. Mass still has quite a following and nothing wrong with that. Have watched some video's of his more recent stuff and they looked interesting.
<shrug>
As an expert witness in shooting cases over the past few decades, Massad Ayoob has drawn a few conclusions about what works and what doesn't. In this excerpt from his recent book, Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob, he explains why he avoids the use of handloads for defensive purposes.
Mosin Bubba
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WRT to the usefulness of full auto - I read one account of the Battle of Berlin where the author said the best way to think of the fighting is like a paintball match. Dozens of troops in very close proximity with lots of cover. Most of the fighting was laying down suppressive fire and darting from cover to cover, but most of the killing came when someone rounded the wrong corner and found themselves face to face with an enemy soldier at a distance of feet. The usual reaction for most people in that situation is just to spray and break contact ASAP, and that's exactly the kind of situation where you'd want a full auto sub gun.
As far as using a machine pistol for home defense - if I'm legally responsible for every bullet I shoot, I don't want to be dumping 10 of them every second.
As far as using a machine pistol for home defense - if I'm legally responsible for every bullet I shoot, I don't want to be dumping 10 of them every second.
Alex Clayton
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So no shotguns for you I guess
Mosin Bubba
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So no shotguns for you I guess
Ehh, what's the spread on an 870 loaded with buck compared to a Glock 18.
AK103K
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All depends on you being able to shoot either, and having the experience to know.
A lot of people seem to think a shogun will give you a good "spread" across a room. A lot also seem to think a FA gun, will be spraying rounds everywhere. Obviously, those people have little to no experience with either.
Old Dog
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Eh, I once saw a guy totally miss the guy he was shooting at from about 10' away down a hallway -- with an 870 (full house 00, nine .32 cal pellets). The pucker factor of a situation -- and the experience of the shooter -- can make a difference with a shotgun or a FA SMG.
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