Old school reloading....muzzleloader questions

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CMV

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Buddy's boy just got a black powder rifle so he can hunt muzzleloader season too. Instead of opting for something somewhat practical, he wanted a .50 cal Traditions Kentucky Rifle model R2020. Guess I'll be trapping a raccoon so he can make a hat to go with it :)

I know 0 about a muzzleloader except he shouldn't touch any type of smokeless powder I have.

They think it can only shoot round ball due to the octagon barrel & 1:66 twist (and I had to look it up because I thought he was saying it wrong with 1:66!). They can't find black powder in stock local & LGS by my work has tons of stuff so figured I'd check there. Problem is, I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for. I think I need:

1. Some sort of black powder. No idea what brand or type to get. Or is it all the same? And how much - i.e. X shots per pound?
2. 50 cal projectile. Does MBC or ACME or someone make a coated one like the Hi-Tek? If so is that better so he isn't handling balls of exposed lead?
3. Also for 50 cal projectile, round ball only option for that? What would be appropriate for hunting our smallish NC deer? Do they come in different grain weights or is a ball a ball?
4. Percussion cap. Again, brand/type/doesn't-matter-all-the-same?
5. Is there supposed to be some sort of patch that goes in with the ball/projectile? If so, what am I looking for there?

Thanks...sorry if too far off topic, I don't stray much outside of this forum on THR.
 
I'll try a few of your questions.:)
3. Also for 50 cal projectile, round ball only option for that? What would be appropriate for hunting our smallish NC deer?
I don't hunt with my 50 caliber Hawkins anymore, but when I did, I took a couple good sized mule deer with regular ol' patched 50 caliber round balls. Regular ol' 50 caliber round balls will work fine for smaller deer.
If so is that better so he isn't handling balls of exposed lead?
"Exposed lead?" You're making much ado about nothing. I wouldn't carry spare lead round balls in my mouth, but handling them??? Tell your buddy's boy to wash his hands before eating if you're worried about him handling lead.
Do they come in different grain weights or is a ball a ball?
A pure lead, 50 caliber round ball weighs the same as any other pure lead 50 caliber round ball. And I don't know what that is.;)
Percussion cap. Again, brand/type/doesn't-matter-all-the-same?
There's probably a difference between brands. I don't know what brand I have in my muzzle loader box. I'm pretty sure you have to consider what size of a nipple your gun has when you buy caps for it.:)
 
Follow mfgr instructions that came with it, or if it a was bought after market use the i'net to find them. They will state what range of charges of what type of powder, and the type of cap to use. 1:66 is too slow for saboted or lead bullets. He will need a short starter to get the ball started down barrel, a screw attch for the rod to remove a ball loaded without powder (and he will), and "worm" for removing stuck patch, and a nipple wrench to clean out nipple. I recommend a brass, over plastic, powder flask with intechangable spouts for the proper measure of BP.

You are here on this forum, so caution him NO SMOKELESS POWDER GOES DOWN BORE. Do not measure in grain equilivemts (until he under stands how to establish them) BP is measured by volume not weight. Get a book on BP shooting, just like he would get a reloading manual before begining to reload.

Go to the Black Powder thread here and/or castboolets.com, a primarialy black powder forum. If he gets experience and really likes BP shooting, they have an excellent thread on making BP safely.
 
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I will also try to answer a few of your qeustions. I also don't hunt with my blackpowder rifles anymore, and haven't shot them in many years. I did shoot them a lot when I was in that phase. I own an inline 50 caliber (Knight camo), a 50 caliber Thompson percussion, a 45 caliber Kentucky long rifle (kit that I built including bluing/browning all metal parts, don't remember the kit name), and a 38 caliber six shot revolver. That being said...

I know 0 about a muzzleloader except he shouldn't touch any type of smokeless powder I have.

This is absolutely correct. Unless loading for modern metallic cartridges, no smokeless powder. Muzzleloaders can use black powder OR a black powder substitute such as Pyrodex, although there may be others now. Pyrodex is basically a cleaner burning "modern" black powder. It loads the same, and in my experience it shoots the same, only cleaner. "Cleaner" is relative, it is still a mess to clean up after and still leaves a big cloud of smoke when shot!:) Also something to be aware of, black powder or substitutes can be gotten as powder (like any modern smokeless powder) OR as preformed pellets, just like pellets for a wood burning "pellet" stove. It's been a long time, but as I recall these pellets come preformed in 50 grains. SO... one pellet under the patch and bullet equals a 50 grain load, two pellets equals a 100 grain load, and so on.

1. Some sort of black powder. No idea what brand or type to get. Or is it all the same? And how much - i.e. X shots per pound?

I don't know what is available today as far as brand, but it was pretty limited when I shot it all those years ago. X shots per pound will depend on what the rifle likes. My Thompson 50 caliber liked 150 grains for accuracy, but kicked like a mule. At 100 to 120 grains it was pleasant to shoot, but accuracy wasn't there. My 45 Kentucky replica liked between 100 and 110 grains and shot lights out at 60 yards. In the Kentucky replica ten grains up or down were safe to shoot, but accuracy went right out the window. So just like a modern firearm, he will have to try it and see what it likes.

2. 50 cal projectile. Does MBC or ACME or someone make a coated one like the Hi-Tek? If so is that better so he isn't handling balls of exposed lead?
3. Also for 50 cal projectile, round ball only option for that? What would be appropriate for hunting our smallish NC deer? Do they come in different grain weights or is a ball a ball?

I don't know of any coated bullet for a muzzle loader. They may be out there, but I am not aware of any. Again, I haven't shot or looked into it for a long time. That being said...

I did shoot round ball and sabots through mine. Here are a few pics of saboted bullets. These just kind of showed up during unpacking on our recent move, forgot I had them!

IMG_4357.JPG IMG_4358.JPG IMG_4359.JPG IMG_4360.JPG IMG_4361.JPG IMG_4362.JPG IMG_4363.JPG

As you can see the sabot is .50 in diameter, with the bullet being smaller. My calipers are old, cheap, and may need battery's but give a good idea as to size. The bullet is loaded into the plastic sabot and then pounded into the barrel just the same as any muzzle loader. I can't remember if a patch is needed with the sabot, but I want to say it isn't. Again, verify everything!

As for a .50 ball it is a .50 ball. Still needs to be pounded into the barrel.

I am using the term "pounded" loosely, FYI.

For small deer (I hunted white tail in VA) a 50 caliber will be plenty. Short story... I missed one at about 40 yards. Was hunting with my boss and laid the rifle across the hood of his truck. After firing I asked where he dropped since I couldn't see anything from the smoke. He said I missed, but I had cut down two three inch thick trees between myself and the deer. He was not happy about the burn mark on his hood.
 
To add to what has already been said:

- A 1:66 twist is pretty much round ball only.
- In addition to a short starter, powder measure, cleaning jag, patch worm and ball puller, he will want to get a box of .490" balls, some .015 thick prelubed patches, some #11 percussion caps, a pound of FFg or FFFg black powder (grafs has it via mail order), and some cleaning patches.
- Find the manual and read it.
- When he is ready to shoot it, have him start with 50 grains of powder and work his way up 5 grains at a time until he finds the most accurate load.
- 50 cal round ball is more than adequate for deer out to 100 yards.
 
[QUOTE="CMV, post: 11562928, member: 174265"4. Percussion cap. Again, brand/type/doesn't-matter-all-the-same?
5. Is there supposed to be some sort of patch that goes in with the ball/projectile? If so, what am I looking for there?.[/QUOTE]

Percussion cap... I honestly don't remember if there are different sizes. You'll have to research it.

Some sort of patch... yes! He will want to use a patch lubricated/saturated with "bore butter". At least that's what we used twenty or thirty years ago.

The rifle should have instructions, and a range of powder charges that are acceptable, and a powder type as well.

Basically, pour the powder in the barrel. Put a patch on the end of the barrel and set the ball on top. Push it in to get it started. Tap/pound (again the term pound is used loosely) until the patch/bullet hits the powder. Then tap it down some more. You want the powder compressed. If your rod bounces a bit funny (not the same each time) pack it down some more. When your rod bounces the same each time you are there.

It won't go off, you haven't got an ignition source. That comes when you put a cap on the nipple. AFTER the gun is loaded.

Hope you and your buddy and his son have a great time learning about black powder shooting. I enjoyed it when I did it. Black powder revolver is a bit more involved and messy, but still a lot of fun! Shooting six black powder rounds out of a revolver leaves some serious smoke!

chris
 
Black powder and round ball is a lot of fun! If he can hook up with a local club or attend a local BP shoot he'll get more hands-on help than he could possibly ask for. You won't find a better class of gun bugs anywhere. Although some of the guys hereabouts are generally OK, too. :neener:

Oh, I should add, religious cleaning and rust prevention are absolutely mandatory. You can wreck a fine rifle overnight otherwise.
 
^^^ THIS!!!!!

It takes about one to two days to ruin a black powder barrel if not cleaned.

And don't use Hoppes's or any other solvent, use hot soapy water only. The barrel "conditions" like an iron skillet.

chris
 
Loading a front stuffer isn't reloading. It's just loading. You're using new components every shot, nothing is reused.

I could argue that using some new Starline or Norma brass isn't reloading either in that case :)

I know it isn't & why I put the off topic apology at end of post.....
 
Powder. Black, goex, 777, pyrodex and others. Black powder or black powder substitute only.
I have same rifle. 60 Grain measure pyrodex shoots accurate. He will need to work up a load. I would start at 50. Personally wouldn't go over 90. Accuracy and placement more important than power. I've shot 80 in mine and it will punch you.
Ball. .490/.015 patch works good in mine. Prelubed or lube yourself. Olive oil works well. I use 75% wax, 25% veg oil cooked together.
Short starter to me a must.
Standard cap for rifle is #11 unless someone put smaller on it.
You can also get a 209 primer adapter. I like them because it is very tolerable to weather.
Soapy water will clean good then light oil. Heavy oil for storage.
No matter the powder treat all of them as corrosive and do not wait to clean. I swab after shooting and leave it very wet till I get home then very thouroghly clean and oil. I use a hose from a small bottle attached to the nipple and draw and push the fluid with a tight patch on the cleaning jag. This flushes the entire system. Still though remove nipple and run pipe cleaner in the flash channel. Dry patch it completely dry. Some use alcohol to displace residual moisture. Oil according to next use or storage.
 
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I got Pyrodex RS, Hornady 50 cal round balls, CCI 11 caps, & these patches https://www.amazon.com/Thompson-Center-Prelubed-Seasoning-Patches/dp/B000N8JVJA I'm a little concerned with the patches...2.5" & say "cleaning & seasoning patches". They seem really big for that ball. Asked the guy at LGS today & that's what he handed me so no idea......

I have a full set of Lee dippers I don't use. According to chart, the largest one, 4.3cc, is 53.0gr Pyrodex RS. Would that be suitable to measure the powder? Looks like I could mix & match dippers to get about any gr amount I wanted but would be sketchy remembering 2 scoops or 1 scoop of this one, one of that one.....
 
The patches are cleaning patches which you will need. For shooting you need like 49-54 call shooting patches.
RS is ok but next time get P. P is equivalent to 3f. It will have less tendency to build up thick fouling.
Dito on a measure rather than a dipper.
There is a funnel cap for the 1lb powder jug. Makes it easier or a brass tube flask. Don't put powder in from jug or flask. Always put in measure then barrel. It is extremely rare for an ember to be left in the barrel but if you have it happen it is way better a measure charge to go off than a flask.
 
Are the balls .490 or .495. if .490 then a .015 shooting patch should work. If .495 a .010 shooting patch.
 
490.

That's why I got RS. If it doesn't matter, whatever is cleanest next time!

.45 to .58 caliber rifles - we recommend 2 f/ffg (coarse granulation) black powder, Pyrodex®. RS or Pyrodex®.
 
490.

That's why I got RS. If it doesn't matter, whatever is cleanest next time!

.45 to .58 caliber rifles - we recommend 2 f/ffg (coarse granulation) black powder, Pyrodex®. RS or Pyrodex®.
Only a suggestion. I have used RS in 50 call and 45. Experienced occasional hesitation with it. Switched to P and it went away.
 
I have a full set of Lee dippers I don't use. According to chart, the largest one, 4.3cc, is 53.0gr Pyrodex RS. Would that be suitable to measure the powder? Looks like I could mix & match dippers to get about any gr amount I wanted but would be sketchy remembering 2 scoops or 1 scoop of this one, one of that one.....

DO NOT USE ANY MEASURE FOR SMOKELESS POWDER! BP is measured by volume, not by grains, a smokless powder measure. Look at the BP measures and you will see them graduated for BP loads.

If you insist on using grains; take the correct measure of BP or BP substitute and weigh it on your scale. THAT is the grain weight of BP for that BP or substitute. Anytime you change from that weight of BP it must be checked. What is the GRAIN weight of BP that is = to the correct VOLUME measure?
 
DO NOT USE ANY MEASURE FOR SMOKELESS POWDER! BP is measured by volume, not by grains, a smokless powder measure. Look at the BP measures and you will see them graduated for BP loads.

If you insist on using grains; take the correct measure of BP or BP substitute and weigh it on your scale. THAT is the grain weight of BP for that BP or substitute. Anytime you change from that weight of BP it must be checked. What is the GRAIN weight of BP that is = to the correct VOLUME measure?

Unless you're using a scale you're using a volumetric measure. The Lee dippers don't weigh the charge. They are volumetric.
 
From the OP:

I think I need:

1. Some sort of black powder. No idea what brand or type to get. Or is it all the same? And how much - i.e. X shots per pound?

I've shot Pyrodex RS (2F equivalent) for 35+ years and have had good results. Black Powder seems to be somewhat hard to come by these days. Triple 7 is another option and there are a couple more. For me, Pyrodex does the job and is easy to come by at the nearest Sportsman's Warehouse or Bass Pro.

Shots per pound are dependent on what load charge you're putting under the projectile.

Fow8MVS.jpg

2. 50 cal projectile. Does MBC or ACME or someone make a coated one like the Hi-Tek? If so is that better so he isn't handling balls of exposed lead?

As noted by other's....this really is a non-issue. Have him wash his hands afterwards and he'll be fine. I'd be more concerned if he casts his own ammo in high volume and at that point would have his PCM run a blood panel at his annual exam to see what lead levels are.

3. Also for 50 cal projectile, round ball only option for that? What would be appropriate for hunting our smallish NC deer? Do they come in different grain weights or is a ball a ball?

Since the twist is 1/66 it's ideally suited for round balls. Most .50 cal round balls are 176 grains+/- and can drop a deer no problem within 75 yards on a well placed shot. Since it's a Kentucky Barrel its prob around 32/33 inches and that would mean the ball is moving at around 1469 FPS at the muzzle and 1082 FPS at a hundred yards with 90 grains of black powder. That's plenty to drop a smallish deer. I've crumpled 175 pound North Dakota corn feed does at approx 50-75 yards repeatedly with a round ball.

You CAN shoot conicals/sabots but will have to experiment with different weight's due to that slow twist. You might find something that surprises both of you with how accurate it is. I'd start at the lower end of the projectile weight spectrum with that.

Round balls require patches. They're cheap so buy a couple of thicknesses. As noted before, with a .490 ball go with .015 and I'd also pick up some .010's and again, experiment.

oJ6YvTR.jpg

4. Percussion cap. Again, brand/type/doesn't-matter-all-the-same?

Most STANDARD sized nipples accept #11 caps. But, I don't know if someone replaced you're so I can't guarantee that. I replaced several of my traditional muzzleloader #11 nipples with musket versions. That's to ensure a hotter flash and more reliable ignition. Truth be told I keep my flash holes clean and never had ignition issues with #11's. BUT....those musket caps go off with authority.

4KOeRo5.jpg

5. Is there supposed to be some sort of patch that goes in with the ball/projectile? If so, what am I looking for there?


As I mentioned earlier above...for round balls yes, patches are required. Patches come dry or prelubed. I use Crisco or TC Bore Butter. Put the Crisco in an old 35 mm film container....black with grey top...remember those? Pretty handy for that purpose.

Here are the bare basic accouterments (tools) required to shoot that muzzleloader.

Short or Ball starter. Once you place the ball on the crown of the muzzle with a patch you need to get it started down the barrel. The short started (on the right) does this. It doesn't flex and won't break like a wooden ramrod could. Plus the ball on the end is very comfortable to grasp. You will appreciate this tool once you've fired a few balls and the barrel begins to foul as as starting the ball becomes harder and harder unless you constantly clean the barrel. The ball on the left is to screw into the end of the ram rod during shooting sessions. It too makes life a lot easier at a shooting session.

tDw1gP7.jpg

From left to right:

Small powder flask: Good for hunting. easier to carry around than a powder horn. but not ideal for shooting sessions due to capacity. NOTE: You NEVER pour powder out of a flask directly into a barrel. There could be an ember from a previous shot still there which could result in ignition of your entire bulk powder in the flask/powder horn. ALWAYS pour powder from a measure or premeasured speed loader into a barrel.

Powder measure: This is is graduated by volume (the amount of space a powder charge takes up). set it to your desired charge per the measurements on the adjustable stem. Pour powder from your flask/horn into it and then dump into barrel.

Capper: Shown are three styles. I prefer the middle one which is an inline cappers (two straight ones shown...one for #11 caps and the larger one for musket nipples) vs. the one to the left.

Nipple Wrench: That's the T handled tool 6th from the left. This allows you to remove the nipple to clean it and the flash hole/channel. The top screws off and inside is a small wire attached to the brass top which is also a nipple pick. The tool can hold 1-2 spare nipples depending on what size they are...very handy.

Nipple Pick: The last item on the right made of brass is a dedicated nipple pick to clean out the nipple and possible the flash hole/channel. Since the nipple pick is incorporated in the tool above, if you have that you don't need this one as a stand alone unit.

Small Ram Rod attachments in lower row from left to right:

Ball screw/puller:
Needed when you pound a patched ball or conical down the barrel wthout powder under it. You WILL do this!

Plug scrapper for very end of the barrel to scrap crud off inside.

Spare Nipple

Cleaning jag....there are many different types.....including those that spin freely.

g0D8uaI.jpg

Shown here:

Ball bag: Rather than carry around the entire box of round balls that has a tendency to open up, this ball bag made of leather has a slit in it to feed the balls into. The leather tongue folds over to prevent the balls from coming out on their own. Old frontier design that's as handy today as it was back in the 1800's.

Small leather tool bag: Holds the nipple tool and the Ram Rod attachments.

fdRFBWu.jpg

Possibles Bag (which holds all of the stuff shown above and possibly more depending on your needs) and a powder horn.

td3zt3e.jpg
 
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I have been having some fun with a traditions 50 caliber flintlock. They have a bunch of videos on how to load and clean their side lock rifles, just check their website. You only need water to clean the gun though, preferably hot. I then use a patch or 2 wetted down with Ballistol to run down the bore to prevent rust. Clean asap after shooting of course. Other posts here are correct that your 1:66 twist rate calls for a .490 patched round ball, best accuracy with a .015 patch, although you can also use .010". I use 70g grains Goex 2FG black powder down the barrel although you can substitute Pyrodex RS if you like, especially as you are using percussion caps. 70 grains of 2F is a typical charge and what I shoot; IIRC 110 grains is max, although I have never shot more than 90 grains 2FG. Note that black powder is measured by volume, not weight; an empty 30-06 case holds 70 grains 2FG black powder btw. A useful tip is to run a spit patch (45 cleaning patches work well) down the bore between shots to clean fouling and ease loading. Get a patch worm to remove the cleaning patch if you lose it down the bore. Enjoy! Muzzleloaders are a lot of fun...you'll be hooked in no time!
 
Buddy's boy just got a black powder rifle so he can hunt muzzleloader season too. Instead of opting for something somewhat practical, he wanted a .50 cal Traditions Kentucky Rifle model R2020. Guess I'll be trapping a raccoon so he can make a hat to go with it :)

I know 0 about a muzzleloader except he shouldn't touch any type of smokeless powder I have.

They think it can only shoot round ball due to the octagon barrel & 1:66 twist (and I had to look it up because I thought he was saying it wrong with 1:66!). They can't find black powder in stock local & LGS by my work has tons of stuff so figured I'd check there. Problem is, I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for. I think I need:

1. Some sort of black powder. No idea what brand or type to get. Or is it all the same? And how much - i.e. X shots per pound?
2. 50 cal projectile. Does MBC or ACME or someone make a coated one like the Hi-Tek? If so is that better so he isn't handling balls of exposed lead?
3. Also for 50 cal projectile, round ball only option for that? What would be appropriate for hunting our smallish NC deer? Do they come in different grain weights or is a ball a ball?
4. Percussion cap. Again, brand/type/doesn't-matter-all-the-same?
5. Is there supposed to be some sort of patch that goes in with the ball/projectile? If so, what am I looking for there?

Thanks...sorry if too far off topic, I don't stray much outside of this forum on THR.
This would've been better placed in the blackpowder forum. First thing I'm going to suggest is the Lyman blackpowder book by Sam Fadala. He'll learn a lot more from that than third hand info from a smokeless reloading forum. No offense but if you have to ask us, he needs to learn from someone who knows. There's a whole lot to learn here.

There's really nothing less practical about a traditional muzzleloader.

1. I'm assuming by the model number that this is a percussion gun. Yes, absolutely blackpowder or substitute, NO smokeless powder. You can get away with substitutes in percussion guns but not flintlocks. That said, I only use Goex blackpowder any more. A blackpowder measure is an absolute must. Measure by volume, not weight.

2./3. Roundball only for the 1-66" twist. Round balls vary only by diameter. No worries handling "exposed lead". For .50's, that would be .490-.495". Speer and Hornady are very good.

4. #11 percussion caps. Some substitutes ignite better with a magnum cap. CCI is kinda the standard.

5. Yes. I prefer to use pre-lubed patches and mostly T/C brand. They are sized according to caliber.
 
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