RetiredUSNChief
Member
Well, at least he isn't claiming to have shot himself with an unloaded weapon!
Another SIG P320 accident.
- Thread starter Col. Harrumph
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RetiredUSNChief
Member
You have some good points. I, too, have a hard time believing that there was absolutely NO operator error involved here. Been known to happen, but it's darned rare indeed.
However, I don't see the problem with leaving a pistol in the holster while removing it.
It's long been said that "the safest place for your pistol is in its holster". Which, of course, implies a quality holster properly designed to protect the trigger. Most NDs happen when people are actually handling the weapon.
Personally, one of the reasons I chose my holster is specifically so that I could easily remove the holster with the pistol in it with relative ease. There are a variety of reasons for this, one example being the need to comply with various laws which do not allow me to carry concealed in certain locations. I can easily remove the holster/pistol together and secure it temporarily, then don it again afterwards...all without the need to remove the pistol at all.
(For illustration, mine is a Milt Sparks Criterion for my Colt 1991A1.)
Even at home, my pistol remains holstered.
Of course, I do remove it from the holster for range time, practice, cleaning, etc. (With the proper clearing thereof.)
JR24
Member
Two that come to mind would be the Beretta PX4 Storm (don't recall which model is the DAO one) and tracking down an old Sig P250.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
If you're not, then you're probably part of a statistically small number of people who carry like this.
Statistically, you are NOT the most likely recipient of the bullet. That claim makes no sense at all, because what this means is that the majority of people who are shot with a gun are shot with a bullet from their own gun (and, in your claim here, the first bullet to boot).
My opinion is if a person chooses to carry a firearm, in addition to all the other stuff that goes along with this (safety, practice, proficiency, etc.), one should carry the weapon loaded with whatever self-defense ammo they choose, period.
With a dollar, my opinion will get you a cup of coffee at McDonalds.
Carry how you wish...but do so with a realistic understanding of the actual risks associated with it.
.455_Hunter
Member
The Sig P250 series are DAO, stupidly discontinued in favor of the P320. The P290RS and S&W 3914DAO are similar.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27191-DB-diatribe-on-triggers
(ignore the fact he's "banned". He asked the mods to enforce a 1 month away from the forum period. DB was and is a solid dude.)
Appreciate the recommendations guys... trying to keep with new/in-production models. Looks like the Beretta PX4 DAO only comes full size; the SW 3914DAO seems to be a limited NYPD model; and the Sig 290RS (which would be perfect for it’s size and 9mm) also seems discontinued.
Back to the drawing board... and apologies for the hijack.
zaitcev
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Speaking of "true DAO", you cannot find a tru-er DAO than SCCY CPX-2 and then this happens:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sccy-self-discharge.824715/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sccy-self-discharge.824715/
fastbolt
Member
So, any updates? (Or even an original link to the article that contains more details?)
ND's can happen due to inattention when handling firearms, even if they're holstered.
My first thought would be to wonder if the individual had holstered his pistol while wearing an outer garment that had a strong/cord which had become trapped inside the holster, around the trigger, and when the holster was pulled far enough away from the wearer's body the cord pulled against the trigger. Ditto a lightweight bit of thin shirttail. Anything that could've become caught against the inside of the holster and trigger guard area during holstering.
Barring such a user-induced condition, then both the pistol and the holster need to be carefully inspected for normal function and operation, proper condition (maintenance, etc).
The question may become one of whether the gear will be subjected to a proper inspection, either right away, or if a claim is eventually made against the maker of the firearm and holster.
Otherwise, it's fruitless to engage in speculation.
As a LE firearms instructor and armorer, I've had my fair share of opportunities to witness someone experience a ND on a hot range, as well as learn about someone reporting that they experienced one outside the range (in the real world). I've even been involved in inspecting a firearm involved in a reported/witnessed ND. In one case I was given a duty pistol to inspect (as an armorer), and told when I received it that I quite likely wasn't going to find any mechanical problem/cause for the ND, but that it was already acknowledged by the issued user to have been shooter-induced. (Sympathetic muscular contraction with a finger of the hand holding the weapon being on the trigger. That wasn't the only time in which that happened in some elevated stress conditions, either.)
Each incident is going to be unique, even though it may share similar elements to other reported incidents.
The only way to really answer questions in incidents like this is to develop actual answers via careful, trained examination of the gear, combined with statements of the owner/user, and any witnesses. Otherwise it's just speculation and opinion (and sometimes uninformed opinions run wild and get away from informed opinions).
ND's can happen due to inattention when handling firearms, even if they're holstered.
My first thought would be to wonder if the individual had holstered his pistol while wearing an outer garment that had a strong/cord which had become trapped inside the holster, around the trigger, and when the holster was pulled far enough away from the wearer's body the cord pulled against the trigger. Ditto a lightweight bit of thin shirttail. Anything that could've become caught against the inside of the holster and trigger guard area during holstering.
Barring such a user-induced condition, then both the pistol and the holster need to be carefully inspected for normal function and operation, proper condition (maintenance, etc).
The question may become one of whether the gear will be subjected to a proper inspection, either right away, or if a claim is eventually made against the maker of the firearm and holster.
Otherwise, it's fruitless to engage in speculation.
As a LE firearms instructor and armorer, I've had my fair share of opportunities to witness someone experience a ND on a hot range, as well as learn about someone reporting that they experienced one outside the range (in the real world). I've even been involved in inspecting a firearm involved in a reported/witnessed ND. In one case I was given a duty pistol to inspect (as an armorer), and told when I received it that I quite likely wasn't going to find any mechanical problem/cause for the ND, but that it was already acknowledged by the issued user to have been shooter-induced. (Sympathetic muscular contraction with a finger of the hand holding the weapon being on the trigger. That wasn't the only time in which that happened in some elevated stress conditions, either.)
Each incident is going to be unique, even though it may share similar elements to other reported incidents.
The only way to really answer questions in incidents like this is to develop actual answers via careful, trained examination of the gear, combined with statements of the owner/user, and any witnesses. Otherwise it's just speculation and opinion (and sometimes uninformed opinions run wild and get away from informed opinions).
Lol I assumed he was joking. Guns don't just randomly go off when laying there completely untouched...do they?
Are you kidding ... guns KILL people
jk
Here is the original article https://www.unionleader.com/news/co...cle_63c8f130-af21-5eb0-b67d-c12943be8493.html
I have a P320 and what concerns me the most is Sig stating that a vibration can discharge the weapon...seriously?!
I have a P320 and what concerns me the most is Sig stating that a vibration can discharge the weapon...seriously?!
Old Dog
Member
Agree, with a reasonably experienced person and a quality holster (paddle holsters are best for this). As I noted, one must make sure there's no strings/plastic thingamabobs (or clothing) in the holster.
Way old news, the issue has been long addressed.
Wow, that’s scary... guess I stick with:
I don’t even like the internal hammer on the 642 J-frame, and instead own the shrouded hammer 638 and 649 humpbacks, partially because I cannot cannot visually or tactilely verify hammer-down, but mostly because I can ride an exposed hammer with a thumb for reholstering safety. I even put white nail polish on the internal hammer of my LCP22 for an easier visual check of it’s status - that might have helped for the SCCY issue.
.455_Hunter
Member
If you want a striker, the Walther P99AS (G19 size) and P99AS Compact (G26 size) are the best platform out there for safe carry:
- Full decock capability provides DA revolver style trigger pull. Essentially makes the gun a normal DA/SA platform like P226. Excellent SA trigger.
- Signal pin provides indication of striker status.
- Full decock capability provides DA revolver style trigger pull. Essentially makes the gun a normal DA/SA platform like P226. Excellent SA trigger.
- Signal pin provides indication of striker status.
FFGColorado
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I think above all good points to include, for ME, that I take my holster off(easy on-off) to re-holster the gun as well. In spite of some posts, I still don't understand the advantage of a 'civilian', not in some sort of timed competition, 'needing' a holster that features 'quick reholstering'...
IMHO...
I am to understand that some striker fired mechanisms have enough spring tension , with the trigger at rest and unmoved , to detonate the primer if the sear disengages the striker?
Also , can anyone tell me : on a percentage basis , to what degree a typical striker is "pre-loaded' prior to trigger pull? And while I'm at it , what sets the Sig in question apart - mechanically - from the many other striker fired pistols on the market?
Also , can anyone tell me : on a percentage basis , to what degree a typical striker is "pre-loaded' prior to trigger pull? And while I'm at it , what sets the Sig in question apart - mechanically - from the many other striker fired pistols on the market?
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cslinger
Member
Yes. There are striker mechanisms that are basically single action where they just drop the striker vs cocking and dropping. (XD, Walther are two that come to mind I believe). Glocks are “TECHNICALLY”double action as you are cocking the striker the rest of the way.
I am not sure how the P320 works specifically.
JTQ
Member
Glock's also have enough striker tension in their partially cocked state to ignite primers. The thing that keeps Glock's safe are all the other safety features and not the partially cocked status of the striker.
JTQ
Member
In this video, beginning at about the 2:05 mark, Ernest Langdon says the Glock striker is 2/3 cocked.
In a DA/SA analogy, use a SIG P226 and a CZ75B for comparison.
Some would have you believe the partially cocked Glock is like a P226 that has been decocked using the decocker. The hammer is not all the way down, but at that point it doesn't have enough stored energy to fire a round. The trigger pulls the hammer nearly all the way back.
Conversely, I would argue the Glock is closer to the single action of a CZ75B. The hammer is back, with enough energy to fire a round, but when you pull the CZ75B trigger, it cams the hammer further back before releasing the hammer.
zaitcev
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P320's striker is fully cocked, just like on PPQ. But somehow we do not hear about PPQs firing by themselves.
One key difference on P320 is the design of the striker block safety.
Normally, modern automatics have a Glock-like plunger or other such simple block. Although, on some guns, like XD, it is located in the rear, which I think is not great: if the striker breaks into two, the block and sear retain the rear, while the spring drives the front fragment into the primer. On Glock and its clones, the safety plunger acts on the part of the striker forward of the spring, so even if the striker fails, the gun will not fire.
But the P320 is nothing like these other guns here. It uses a little flag that tilts. I don't think it's inherently bad. The overall design was introduced back on P220, believe it or not. However, P220, P226, P229, and P250 were hammer-fired, so perhaps the firing pin block (now striker block) was not challenged as much. Also, I saw pictures of P320 striker chipping and breaking. Usually though, only the sear hook breaks off, and it is not a safety concern. But it tells me that a fracture-type failure is possible, and perhaps the design does not account for such failure.
Buzznrose
Member
What? Surely this is in jest...?
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
While I fully support your right to carry, I hope that you do not.
tipoc
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Some information on the original recall and incidents with the P320. Look this over with a critical eye.
https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade/
Alleged UD's reported on over a span of 18 years or so. This includes a variety of models.: https://www.southwestledger.news/ne...eported#:~:text=A P320 is believed to,7, 2018.
https://whyy.org/articles/septa-pol...istol-accidentally-fires-at-suburban-station/
Text of a 2020 lawsuit against SIG out of Texas
https://www.classaction.org/media/gordon-v-sig-sauer-inc-third-amended-complaint.pdf
https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade/
Alleged UD's reported on over a span of 18 years or so. This includes a variety of models.: https://www.southwestledger.news/ne...eported#:~:text=A P320 is believed to,7, 2018.
https://whyy.org/articles/septa-pol...istol-accidentally-fires-at-suburban-station/
Text of a 2020 lawsuit against SIG out of Texas
https://www.classaction.org/media/gordon-v-sig-sauer-inc-third-amended-complaint.pdf
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