Where does .40s&w fit in for a carry gun??

There's nothing new to add to this topic. Every time it comes up the discussion just devolves into people justifying their choice.

Sydney Vail, Martin Fackler and Gary Roberts all agree that there's no significant difference in the performance characteristics of the three main service calibers.

If any one of the three was clearly and consistently stopping more bad guys than the other two then every Police Department in America would be carrying it and everyone else would be buying it.

Here is a very good article that addresses this issue

http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/why-glock-why-9mm

From the article:

I thought back to the effects different pistol rounds having on animals, victim's of shootings, and Officer involved shootings that I had seen personally and read about during my career. I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm

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It comes down to preference. I actually like .40 but since my wife can't shoot it we buy 9mm. If .40 works for you buy .40 but please don't come here and try to convince everyone else it's the Hammer of Thor

Trunk Monkey said:

If I understand this correctly the improvements in 9mm brought the round within the FBI's performance parameters. The .40 and .45 were already there and the same improvements didn't make them more there.

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Yes, they did.






GR

It’s ironic that some question the effectiveness of 40 caliber over 9 mm and yet the same people believe that 9 mm is superior to 25 and 32 caliber rounds. .40 hits noticeably harder than 9mm. The argument should be between 40 and 45. There are trade-offs between the two but much closer than 9 vs 40.

Hartkopf said:

I've watched this video before and it's one of the reasons I carried a G22 for a while. But he's not using the same ammo between the two calibers and I believe none of what he uses is the best (HST or GoldDots) Also nothing he uses in his targets is a good simulation for human skin. The more I talked to people who have worked in morgues and the more testing I've done, I went with the 9mm. But I do like Paul Harrell and watch his videos when I have free time.

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Paul doesn't believe in stuff like HST or Gold Dots because it's "hyper ammo" to him and doesn't do much more than what cheap Remington or Winchester hollow points do in the service calibers.

And, I tend to agree with him. The Winchester Bonded .40 I bought at $21 a box of 50 works just as well as the 9mm HST ammo that cost more and it works better than the WWB 9mm JHP that cost a few bucks less.

Oh, there I am bringing price into the mix. I keep forgetting we're not supposed to do that when talking self defense because self defense is priceless.

TTv2 said:

Paul doesn't believe in stuff like HST or Gold Dots because it's "hyper ammo" to him and doesn't do much more than what cheap Remington or Winchester hollow points do in the service calibers.

And, I tend to agree with him. The Winchester Bonded .40 I bought at $21 a box of 50 works just as well as the 9mm HST ammo that cost more and it works better than the WWB 9mm JHP that cost a few bucks less.

Oh, there I am bringing price into the mix. I keep forgetting we're not supposed to do that when talking self defense because self defense is priceless.

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I paid $20 per box of 50 for my Gold Dots so it’s not a problem.

Hartkopf said:

I paid $20 per box of 50 for my Gold Dots so it’s not a problem.

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If you can get it for that price that's great, but if you got it from a gun show or other non-retail store means it doesn't count. A few years ago I got 4 boxes of Winchester Ranger .40 JHP for $20 a box at a gun show, but I don't consider that a normal price.

TTv2 said:

If you can get it for that price that's great, but if you got it from a gun show or other non-retail store means it doesn't count. A few years ago I got 4 boxes of Winchester Ranger .40 JHP for $20 a box at a gun show, but I don't consider that a normal price.

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Nope got it on sale from a major online retailer that seems to be one of the favorites of THR members. I never ever buy ammo from gun shows.

You can get 40 cal premium for almost as cheap right now at SGammo.

https://www.sgammo.com/product/40-c...-hollow-point-winchester-ranger-service-ammo-

Garandimal said:

Yes, they did.


GR

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I see what you did there

TTv2 said:

If you can get it for that price that's great, but if you got it from a gun show or other non-retail store means it doesn't count. A few years ago I got 4 boxes of Winchester Ranger .40 JHP for $20 a box at a gun show, but I don't consider that a normal price.

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Last year (not that long ago), I got 165 JHP Ranger Bonded at SGAmmo for 19.95 ($20) for a box of 50.
Best deal going now is this: https://www.sgammo.com/product/40-c...ed-hollow-point-winchester-ranger-service-amm

Trunk Monkey said:

I see what you did there

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Overkill - is a lack of understanding the problem.






GR

It’s a puzzling contradiction in 9mm cult land.
On the one hand, we are to believe that there is no difference between 9 and .40.
On the other hand, “.40 is snappy and hard to shoot”.
Don’t get me wrong, I like 9mm fine...I started carrying 9mm when most cops still carried .38’s, I’m perfectly happy relying on 9mm.
However, due to low cost police surplus, I bought a Glock 22 Gen4. Couldn’t resist, it was like new, with night sights. Come to find out I really like the .40. One trip to the range, and my G22 became my full time house pistol. I really like the 180gn HST.
Personally, for self defense use, I’ve always used +P or +P+ in the 9mm...
As far as shooting behavior, I don’t see much difference between a high powered 9mm self defense load in my G17, and SD load in the .40 G22.

amd6547 said:

It’s a puzzling contradiction in 9mm cult land.
On the one hand, we are to believe that there is no difference between 9 and .40.
On the other hand, “.40 is snappy and hard to shoot”.
Don’t get me wrong, I like 9mm fine...I started carrying 9mm when most cops still carried .38’s, I’m perfectly happy relying on 9mm.
However, due to low cost police surplus, I bought a Glock 22 Gen4. Couldn’t resist, it was like new, with night sights. Come to find out I really like the .40. One trip to the range, and my G22 became my full time house pistol. I really like the 180gn HST.
Personally, for self defense use, I’ve always used +P or +P+ in the 9mm...
As far as shooting behavior, I don’t see much difference between a high powered 9mm self defense load in my G17, and SD load in the .40 G22.

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My thoughts exactly. Hot 9mm shoots the same as most 40. The only exception I’ve found was a box of 40 American Eagle. That was the hardest recoiling ammo I’ve ever shot out of the big three calibers.

Redcoat3340 said:

I DO NOT want to start a caliber war. I'm honestly trying to figure out (read: justify) buying a .40 for a carry gun.
Here's my question: I have a couple of "carry size" (IWB) pistols in .45 -- a Shield, a S&W 4513TSW that's been smoothed out, and a Sig 245. I also have a couple of 9mm for IWB carry -- S&W CS9, S&W 6906, and a Beretta PX4 Compact that I sent to Langdon and is darn near perfect.
I just added two 40's to the safe -- a Beretta 96 Centurian (too big for IWB but sorta compact) and a S&W 4006TSW CHP in honor of my friend, a retired CHiP who just passed away.
So where does a .40 fit into a carry rotation? If I want pocket carry I can use the .45 Shield and for a bit bigger but still handy the 4513. If I want lots of bullets the PX4 is perfect and for size and comfort the CS9 and 6906 are perfectly suitable.
So why should I carry a .40 when I can carry a .45? Or why use .40 when 9mm rounds are perfectly adequate for self protection.

I'd like to get something like a Smith 4013, PX4c in 40, .40 Shield, or an M&P compact....but I can't seem to justify spending money on a gun I probably won't carry as the .45 is bigger bullet (more "stopping power?") and the 9s can carry more rounds.

Opinions?

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I have carried 9, 40 and 45 in HK USP Compacts. To me the 40 recoil was much sharper and since the grip of the 9 and 40 is slightly smaller, it moved in my hand when I shot it. The 45 compact does not. That's why I carried the 45. I now carry a 1911 in 45 - because I can. I don't pocket carry. Pocket guns just don't fit my hands well. I carry the same thing every day and practice with it almost weekly.

There are many variables to consider and we don't know them all (you may not either at this point and may change your mind later - I did). As for TTv2 saying there is no need to carry a .45, that's just an opinion (and not a very good one at that) - he cites ammo cost, I don't care about that as I reload. Maybe you do too - I don't know. Maybe you're rich and don't care.

It really doesn't matter what we all think. It's your life, your gun and your decision.

Pick something you like (I would suggest 9, 40 or 45) that you WILL practice with and if works, fine, if it doesn't, find something that does.

REDCOAT,

I have bought several .40 S&W pistols after selling off almost all my big bore pistols. One advantage they seem to have is that they are cheaper than 9m.m. pistols at the moment. Also, if we have another 9m.m. shortage, you might still be able to get .40 S&W.

I kept a BERETTA 96D Brigadier because it was once my issue gun and because I liked it. It is BIG and bulky, but also very reliable, accurate and for a .40 S&W, recoil is not too strong, even with high velocity loads. I came across a BERETTA 96 Vertec and had to try the Vertec grip, which I really have come to prefer.
These are both BIG pistols and while you can conceal them, I can do much better with a mid size or compact 9m.m., which I am perfectly happy with.

Because they were discontinued, the price of STOEGER 8040 Cougars dropped into the $200.00 range and I bought one. This is a more concealable gun than the BERETTA 96, yet recoil is not at all harsh, as it is with some .40 S&W pistols. I liked it enough to get another one for a car gun. I like the fact that the 8040 pistol will hold 11 rounds in the magazine + one in the chamber and the extra weight over the GLOCK makes it much easier to handle.

With the advent of high performance 9m.m. ammo, the argument for a .40 S&W has become much harder to justify. It is still a good round that with the right bullet will out perform a 9m.m by a small margin, at the cost of greater recoil when comparing the same gun in either caliber. It will come close to the stopping power of a high performance .45ACP, but with a smaller gun or larger magazine capacity.
I had a GLOCK 22 and sold it as I found the recoil unpleasant, but I carried an almost identical GLOCK 17 loaded with +P+ for years and easily qualified with it.

I would not own a sub-compact .40 S&W. For me, the recoil is just too much, but many of the officers I work with have bought one. To each his own.

Just my experience.

Jim

If you reload your own ammo, stock inexpensive bulk-grade bullets exclusively, and practice & carry with your reloads (IOW your carry bullets are nothin' fancy), then the 40 makes a lot of sense. It IS more effective than a similarly loaded 9mm.

If you foresee this happening in the future or your supply of high tech 9mm ammo drying up, the 40 is a great fall back position. In this regard the 40 is sort of a prepper's gun.

amd6547 said:

It’s a puzzling contradiction in 9mm cult land.
On the one hand, we are to believe that there is no difference between 9 and .40.
On the other hand, “.40 is snappy and hard to shoot”.
Don’t get me wrong, I like 9mm fine...I started carrying 9mm when most cops still carried .38’s, I’m perfectly happy relying on 9mm.
However, due to low cost police surplus, I bought a Glock 22 Gen4. Couldn’t resist, it was like new, with night sights. Come to find out I really like the .40. One trip to the range, and my G22 became my full time house pistol. I really like the 180gn HST.
Personally, for self defense use, I’ve always used +P or +P+ in the 9mm...
As far as shooting behavior, I don’t see much difference between a high powered 9mm self defense load in my G17, and SD load in the .40 G22.

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Right there. As you stated, have to compare using carry ammo.
I imagine many shoot standard 115 FMJ for practice, but carry 9mm ammo with more recoil, like 124 +P.
In 40 S&W if one shoots 180 FMJ the recoil is on par with 180 JHP - no different.
When I compared follow up shots (using a shot timer) with Glock 19 versus 23, I used carry ammo (+P in the 9mm) because that is what I would carry.
Same accuracy requirement, my follow up shots were .03 - .04 slower on average with the 23 (Yea, a whopping four hundredths second).

OrangePwrx9 said:

It IS more effective than a similarly loaded 9mm.

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How would you quantify that?

CDW4ME said:

Right there. As you stated, have to compare using carry ammo.
I imagine many shoot standard 115 FMJ for practice, but carry 9mm ammo with more recoil, like 124 +P.
In 40 S&W if one shoots 180 FMJ the recoil is on par with 180 JHP - no different.
When I compared follow up shots (using a shot timer) with Glock 19 versus 23, I used carry ammo (+P in the 9mm) because that is what I would carry.
Same accuracy requirement, my follow up shots were .03 - .04 slower on average with the 23 (Yea, a whopping four hundredths second).

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My exact experience as well.

99% of the shooters here lack a shot timer. Shame, really.

Gen 5 Glock 40's are coming. Hopefully the 35 is included. So far 22,23,27 confirmed.

I don't have the 9mm version to compare but recoil is very easily managed with my M&P 2.0 Compact in 40. I honestly don't view it as an issue.

Zerodefect said:

99% of the shooters here lack a shot timer. Shame, really.

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I doubt that. It’s probably more like 99% don’t use a shot timer. There are shot timer apps for both iOS and Android that work well enough, and I suspect most people here have at least one iOS or Android device.

Ed Ames said:

I doubt that. It’s probably more like 99% don’t use a shot timer. There are shot timer apps for both iOS and Android that work well enough, and I suspect most people here have at least one iOS or Android device.

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In all honesty I do not have a shot timer. Could you recommend a good shot timer app for an I phone?

Trunk Monkey said:

How would you quantify that?

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Like Mike J, I like my M2.0 Compact in 40 so much I started reloading for it. I've loaded 180 gr FMJ rounds from the min to max book loads and they're all soft shooting. The UPS truck just today brought me a 3rd magazine and a load of HSTs for carry. I was using Gold Dots previously. I just love this thing.

It's a legitimate question. The poster stated "It is more effective." How do you quantify that? What do you compare? If I shoot you with a 9mm and someone else with a .40 who is incapacitated quicker?

Mike J said:

In all honesty I do not have a shot timer. Could you recommend a good shot timer app for an I phone?

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I’ve used one called Make Ready Lite and one called Shot Trainer (which works with an Apple Watch to give a wrist-based timer) with success.

If you are curious about your time (and what shot timers are good for) you can use an app and get the info. If you find it useful you’ll probably end up buying a standalone, but for the 99% who don’t feel a need to own a shot timer and would rather spend the money on something else, an app will do.

Nowadays I have a MantisX thingimabobber and the app for that has shot timer functions but it’s not really the same and was $$$. If I was competing I’d own a standalone timer.