Nightstand Pistol

Old Dog said:

Eh, I once saw a guy totally miss the guy he was shooting at from about 10' away down a hallway -- with an 870 (full house 00, nine .32 cal pellets). The pucker factor of a situation -- and the experience of the shooter -- can make a difference with a shotgun or a FA SMG.

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Thats the whole point of being experienced with whatever you intend to use, and before you have to use it.

It really doesnt matter what that is, but you do have to be as familiar and experienced with it, that you dont have to think about working or shooting the gun well, and without thought.

That takes work and regular practice to be proficient. Just having "something" by the bed is really pretty much meaningless, and even more so if you arent shooting it as "realistically" as possible in regular practice.

If you arent doing that, anything else, in reality, is is just basing things on a hope and a wish.

AK,

Since you own at least 2 full auto guns, you undoubtedly practice with them. THAT IS A BIG THING. I only shoot full auto when I qualify with my agency or go to LAS VEGAS to shoot something I have always wanted to, like the Scorpion or MP5 or a BAR.
As long as you already have them and can practice, that is fine. For the vast majority of us, we do not get the minimum amount of practice, to use these guns effectively.

In fact, many, if not most people using guns for self defense have not the experience or training to use them to there full effectiveness.

When I went through the academy, the guy shooting next to me completely missed the target at 15 feet for the S&W 686 he was training on. He had NO HITS and I had SEVEN hits, despite firing only six rounds. We were using .38 Special wadcutters to may this even worse. His hands were literally shaking at the end of the 6 shots. Happily, he left law enforcement and went into an administrative job, with my agency.

On the other hand, you still may legal problems, even if justified. Mas AYOOB wrote an article about a class III salesman and factory rep. who defended himself and was dumped by his employer, a major arms manufacturer and faced prosecution because the D.A. was just convinced that having a full auto gun with him, meant he was looking for trouble.

Also, your guns have stocks, even the MAC'S. As you pointed out, without a stock, a full auto like a machine pistol can be very hard to control.

Jim

El GODFATHER,

As a lawyer, you know that getting convicted is separate from getting prosecuted or investigated pending prosecution. That can be a big hassle that can be very nerve wracking, even if you are justified. People who are targeted by a D.A. and crucified in the press, have to hire lawyers and pay them a lot of money to them, as well.

My nightstand gun loaded with 124 grain +p HST - backed up with a Winchester 12 ga. Defender:

AK103K said:

Thats the whole point of being experienced with whatever you intend to use, and before you have to use it.

It really doesnt matter what that is, but you do have to be as familiar and experienced with it, that you dont have to think about working or shooting the gun well, and without thought.

That takes work and regular practice to be proficient. Just having "something" by the bed is really pretty much meaningless, and even more so if you arent shooting it as "realistically" as possible in regular practice.

If you arent doing that, anything else, in reality, is is just basing things on a hope and a wish.

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THIS!!
That is what is often scary about shotguns for home. So many buy one because they were told it's the best for someone who does not shoot or own a gun. So these people buy one and often NEVER fire it at all. Many more will take it out and shoot a box or two, so 5 or 10 rounds of buck or such, put it in a closet and that's that. Most will go all their life and never need it so no problems. If they ever actually do need it they can easily not only completely miss the first shot, they can then turn it into a club trying to rack a new round. No matter what people choose they have to practice.
This is even worse with many guys who buy something for the wife. They pick out a gun for her. Hand it to her and tell her here's your gun for the home. Poor woman often has no idea how it works under stress. If they ever need it they often end up with the damn thing taken away from them, fire blindly and hit nothing, or never even get a shot off. My Wife is a pretty good shot with some of our guns. Many of her choices are calibers I don't like but, its stuff she will go to the range with regularly and shoot. So far better than expecting her to use something she refuses to ever shoot. At least she can hit what she shoots at with the smaller caliber stuff and will carry them. At home choices, she will shoot the Ruger or AR's that are 9mm and will shoot the full size 9mm pistols because they are big and heavy. So those are far better for her. Anything that gets no practice time for whatever reason is a poor choice for people.

Alex Clayton said:

Now that it's far easier to search the book he made the comment in that got it all started was "Combat Shooting".

Again he did not say what became a common "thing" on the net, that he had seen court cases where a D/A went after someone. Many just kept saying they "heard" and as it got re-told over and over it got to where a lot of people believed it to the point of no talking to them. Just like the ones who when told he said something about not using them also would not hear he ever said it. The problem that often comes up with things like this on the net is many get set in their idea of something and no longer want to hear it when told they got the wrong idea from someone. Mass still has quite a following and nothing wrong with that. Have watched some video's of his more recent stuff and they looked interesting.
<shrug>

As an expert witness in shooting cases over the past few decades, Massad Ayoob has drawn a few conclusions about what works and what doesn't. In this excerpt from his recent book, Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob, he explains why he avoids the use of handloads for defensive purposes.

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No disagreement from me on this one.

We've all heard how a lie can get halfway around the world before the truth can get it's pants on. Now, thanks to the internet, it can get all the way around. Five times.

So many people on the web apparently can't read (and PLEASE don't think this is directed at you, because it most assuredly is not), and even more don't verify what they're told, that misinformation and misattributions spread like wildfire. So much so that even people who really should know better end up repeating them until they take on the aura of truth.

You wake up at 3 am hearing breaking glass, groggy and grab a machine pistol ?!?! what could possibly go wrong? My choice is a semi auto with a manual safety, or DA revolver.

tactikel said:

You wake up at 3 am hearing breaking glass, groggy and grab a machine pistol ?!?! what could possibly go wrong? My choice is a semi auto with a manual safety, or DA revolver.

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So your froggy brain can forget to disengage the safety or, oops, there's more than one bad guy and you only have six shots?

Schrodinger's break-in cuts both ways.

tactikel said:

You wake up at 3 am hearing breaking glass, groggy and grab a machine pistol ?!?! what could possibly go wrong? My choice is a semi auto with a manual safety, or DA revolver.

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Most do not any longer get a chance to fire anything like you are describing so they should not trust one but, if you feel you can not safely handle a firearm when you wake up you should not have any firearm at ready. If you can't trust yourself it will not matter how many rounds the gun can fire, you are not safe. Kind of like the old joke from that movie with the Russian guy asked about the safety on a gun. Where he says "Is not safe, is gun". So the safe move for people who can't safely use a gun if they are woken up is not have access to one. Put the gun in some kind of safe you have to fully wake up to open. Some people are certainly not safe as they shoot other family members who wake them up. Sadly those types should never have had any gun but, well they did.

I had to harken back to the original post to remember what the question was (basically, if legal in your state, would you utilize a machine pistol or semi-auto for nightstand duty?) ... I can't keep a full-auto gun in my house (I live in one of the approximately 15 states that don't allow Class III firearms). I originally responded that I'm an aimed-fire, semi-auto kind of guy. Nothing said in this thread would make me re-think my first answer; I've plenty of experience with full-auto from 9mm to 7.62 mm to .50 caliber (I've used but not been regularly assigned as a gunner for) the M240, M249, the M60, the M2 and been issued an MP5 for duty) -- so, all that noted, I'm still firmly in the camp of aimed fire with a more compact weapons system if something goes bump in the night. Now, if it were like the scene in the original Dawn of the Dead movie (not the 2005 re-make) where the biker gang descended on the shopping mall where our survivors were holed up, I might re-consider. But, like I noted before, I'd be way more confident (especially if just awakened out of a sound sleep) with a platform I carry daily, and shoot weekly.

I don't disagree with AK-103K about how effective FA can be in the hands of someone experienced, but the way I read the OP, it seemed he was talking about a basic MP with no arm-brace/shoulder stock (OP, if you're still following, feel free to check in), so I submit that 99% of good Americans would be better served by a semi-auto pistol that they regularly practice with at their local range. IMO, there's a big difference between a hand-held MP and something with a stock one can put to the shoulder and get a good, firm sight picture with.

(Disclaimer: the sheriff's office I briefly worked for prior to going into the military in 1979 still had a couple Thompsons in the armory -- now, if I could own one of those, and regularly practice with it -- my answer might be totally different.) It's a .45 ACP, for gosh' sakes ...

Old Dog said:

I had to harken back to the original post to remember what the question was (basically, if legal in your state, would you utilize a machine pistol or semi-auto for nightstand duty?) ... I can't keep a full-auto gun in my house (I live in one of the approximately 15 states that don't allow Class III firearms). I originally responded that I'm an aimed-fire, semi-auto kind of guy. Nothing said in this thread would make me re-think my first answer; I've plenty of experience with full-auto from 9mm to 7.62 mm to .50 caliber (I've used but not been regularly assigned as a gunner for) the M240, M249, the M60, the M2 and been issued an MP5 for duty) -- so, all that noted, I'm still firmly in the camp of aimed fire with a more compact weapons system if something goes bump in the night. Now, if it were like the scene in the original Dawn of the Dead movie (not the 2005 re-make) where the biker gang descended on the shopping mall where our survivors were holed up, I might re-consider. But, like I noted before, I'd be way more confident (especially if just awakened out of a sound sleep) with a platform I carry daily, and shoot weekly.

I don't disagree with AK-103K about how effective FA can be in the hands of someone experienced, but the way I read the OP, it seemed he was talking about a basic MP with no arm-brace/shoulder stock (OP, if you're still following, feel free to check in), so I submit that 99% of good Americans would be better served by a semi-auto pistol that they regularly practice with at their local range. IMO, there's a big difference between a hand-held MP and something with a stock one can put to the shoulder and get a good, firm sight picture with.

(Disclaimer: the sheriff's office I briefly worked for prior to going into the military in 1979 still had a couple Thompsons in the armory -- now, if I could own one of those, and regularly practice with it -- my answer might be totally different.) It's a .45 ACP, for gosh' sakes ...

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Im right there with you with "aimed fire", and with anything youre shooting. I aim with everything I shoot, I just dont always use the sights when I do.

Just because you might not be "consciously" using/seeing the sights doesnt mean you arent "aiming". There are a number of ways to aim and index the gun, and all can be very effective, but you need to have experienced shooting that way, and know when what applies and is called for. You also need to shoot the different ways enough to be able to seamlessly switch things up as needed and without thought.

At close ranges, as you normally encounter in most houses, even with a handgun, I likely won't be "consciously" using the guns sights in a traditional manner. Thats not saying Im not aiming though, I absolutely am, Im just letting my brain deal with that at a different level.

Contrary to what you might have heard, it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.

One thing I can pretty much guarantee is, if you try to aim using the sights in the traditional manner on full auto, youre going to have a lot of trouble and the results are not likely going to be all that great. Unless you're trying to squeeze off a more precise single shot, you're much better off learning to shoot "over" the sights.

And that applies to all types of guns too. The "wings" on a number of my long guns have dabs of bright paint on them for just that reason. At close ranges, I practice with my long guns the same way I do my handguns, and most of that isnt using the sights in a traditional manner.

I would hope, that whatever it is youre planning on using, youre very intimate with it, and put in the time and effort needed to be competent and proficient with it, and do so as far beyond just the "basics" as you can get.

The more you learn, the more you know. And theres "always" something more to learn.

Doesn’t make any sense for my situation, so no. I have a pistol that works well but doesn’t cost much so when it’s taken away as evidence I’m not out much.

Old Dog said:

Disclaimer: the sheriff's office I briefly worked for prior to going into the military in 1979 still had a couple Thompsons in the armory -- now, if I could own one of those, and regularly practice with it -- my answer might be totally different.) It's a .45 ACP, for gosh' sakes ...

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I've got a AO SA clone and it sure is a pussy cat with the .45. As a practical gun? I'd need better sights and to hack about an inch off the stock for a better LOP. Also the foregrop, the danged thing is like 13 lbs unloaded.

My grandfather carried one in the Pacific and, in the rare times he talked about the war, hated it. Too heavy, difficult to shoot precicely, and his unit mostly worked at night and didn't use guns. He did say that in the proper range you just aimed at the left ankle and let the recoil do the rest

JR24 said:

I've got a AO SA clone and it sure is a pussy cat with the .45. As a practical gun? I'd need better sights and to hack about an inch off the stock for a better LOP. Also the foregrop, the danged thing is like 13 lbs unloaded.

My grandfather carried one in the Pacific and, in the rare times he talked about the war, hated it. Too heavy, difficult to shoot precicely, and his unit mostly worked at night and didn't use guns. He did say that in the proper range you just aimed at the left ankle and let the recoil do the rest

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You hear the "aim low, and let the gun go up" thing quite a bit from a lot of the old guys. Turn the gun on its side, and hold it at your hip, and sweep left to right was another.

What that comes from is, fighting the gun, and "trying" to hold it down as it runs. Another thing lot of people used to try and do to make things better was, hold the sling up at the stock, put their hand on top of the barrel, etc, trying to get better control too.

The fault with most things that try and hold the gun down is, youre just fighting the gun and its not going to work. If you relax, dont fight it, and ride the gun like it was a high pressure hose, and keep the gun moving back onto where you want it, things are easily controlled.


I used to shoot with a guy every Sunday for a number of years who had a 1921 Thompson, one of the ones with a fast cyclic rate. It ran in the 1K rpm range, and about as fast as a MAC. I dont think I ever saw him actually shoulder the gun, he usually held it "movie style", under his arm at his side, and just ripped off mags and drums, and always with a BIG smile on his face. He would also just shred the center of an IPSC silhouette target into a ragged hole. You definitely wouldnt want him "pointing" that gun at you.

Shooting "open bolt" guns, like the Thompson, M3, STEN, MP40, etc, can take some getting used to, especially if youre not used to them.

Once you get used to that bolt "traveling" after you pull the trigger and prior to the shot going off, you can actually make fairly precise and repeatable shots on things, within the reasonable range of the gun and the sights.

They also have some safety issues that need more of your attention too. Most people accustomed to closed bolt guns, think the gun is safe when the bolt is locked back, and dont realize its ready to fire. Making the gun safe is another thing you need to pay attention too. You have to remove/lower the mag before you lower the bolt, or things will likely get exciting, and not in a good way.

You also have to watch that the bolt is locked closed on safe, assuming it can be. If something catches the bolt and moves it rearward, it doesnt have to lock back to fire, just come back far enough to strip a round.

My buddy had that happen on my MAC when his hand slipped off the charging knob as he was cocking it and the bolt went forward, stripped a round and fired. Luckily, it was pointed in a safe direction, and his finger wasnt on the trigger, or it could have been ugly.

FYI the OP is not in the USA..

There are so few "Machine Pistols" in the USA its kind of a moot point that 99.99% of our membership cannot answer. (I know we have a handful of international members)

My Nightstand gun has a RMR and X300... To me, those items are far more practical than a selector switch.

****My only point of reference from FA is an AK 30+ years ago. .

My opinions aren’t worth that much, I’m far from an authority on self defense. I imagine that a rifle caliber or shotgun with a reasonably long barrel is most effective against home invaders. A pistol caliber carbine (auto or semi) WITH a stock is probably second best.

I have a house full of kids and must keep things secured, which means for me a rapid access nightstand safe. I keep “Chief” in it every night. I’m pretty good with him and given my situation I feel fairly well protected.


I will suggest that a good reliable light is probably just as important as your choice of weapon. Anytime I have Chief at the range the light is on while I shoot as it is just as much to test it as it is to test the gun and the owner.

I like to think of home defense as a system. Good outdoor lighting, cameras, good doors/windows/locks, big dogs, and then the nightstand. All are important aspects to the most important factor, a good plan.

surfer

el Godfather said:

Yes Glock 18 stock but CZ Auto has a front grip (its actually a magazine the get attached upside down as a fore grip) to keep it down along with the extended and ported Barrel.

meanwhile I found this interesting video on Glock 18.

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That was great. That girl is one hell of a good shot with that thing. She out shot R Lee by a lot

My Nightstand and EDC are one in the same. The only difference is at night we employ a Surefire flashlight with the EDC during the hours of low light. KISS!

el Godfather said:

Yea, and did you hear what he said.....don't have to use it like MP all the time. Plus I think she was placing the shots quite well in the auto mode even without a Glock stock.

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Can you imagine having her job? I take it she gets paid for doing that. Talk about a dream job. Get paid to shoot, free gun and ammo? Especially if I had co-workers like her?

I keep my Ruger PC9, G19, LCP ll, and finally my Ruger 44 mag on or next to my nightstand. Pc9 and 44mag on my side. G19 and LCP ll in my wife's side. If we need more then this. We are up sheets Creek w/o a paddle. Gave my sister my Mossberg 590 due to recent events.

Mosin Bubba said:

Ehh, what's the spread on an 870 loaded with buck compared to a Glock 18.

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Hence the low-base Federal Flight Control Load.


GR

I use #1 Buck in my shotguns. Carries a heavier load and more pellets of only slightly smaller size than 00 Buck (16/.30 vs 9/.33).

At across the room distances, 10' to 15', its barely started to open up....



At across the room distances, you can expect something similar to the buck groups above with a SMG "burst". Probably a bit more with something without a stock.


At 25'-30' with the buck you start to get some "spread".....

AK103K said:

I use #1 Buck in my shotguns. Carries a heavier load and more pellets of only slightly smaller size than 00 Buck (16/.30 vs 9/.33).

At across the room distances, 10' to 15', its barely started to open up....
View attachment 928941
View attachment 928942

At across the room distances, you can expect something similar to the buck groups above with a SMG "burst". Probably a bit more with something without a stock.


At 25'-30' with the buck you start to get some "spread".....


View attachment 928943
View attachment 928944

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Was fortunate to get in on the Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot (LE132 1B) when it was in production.



Had I known that it would be a limited run, would have bought even more.




GR