The Rise (and Fall?) of The Hollow Point....

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Mosin77 said:
Question for those who have studied the matter:

We know the principle works with something like a rifle or relatively high velocity handgun. How does it work in the slower calibers, either “big and slow” like .45acp, or “small and slow” like .32acp/.32 long -I’m sure it’s as good as or a little better than FMJ (provided it will feed) but is the velocity sufficient for the desired “fluid cutting effect?”
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tests i saw indicated screwdriver advantage nonexistent vs hollowpoints vis a vis pmt wound cavity and they do not penertrate as far as hardcast-flat nose or fmj-fn if looking for penetration.

my top picks for .32acp are buff bore hardcast flat nose and winchester fmj-fn.

for .32long i run with target wadcutters.
 
Mosin77 said:
Question for those who have studied the matter:

We know the principle works with something like a rifle or relatively high velocity handgun. How does it work in the slower calibers, either “big and slow” like .45acp, or “small and slow” like .32acp/.32 long -I’m sure it’s as good as or a little better than FMJ (provided it will feed) but is the velocity sufficient for the desired “fluid cutting effect?”
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When it comes to the Lehigh XD, it seems the slower the bullet the less the effect from fluid transfer. Which is no surprise. The jets created by the bullet likely only produce a percentage of the velocity of the bullet itself. The faster the better, provided there's enough sectional density to get adequate penetration.
 
I have been loading some of the Inceptor 9mm 65 gr. bullets. So far I am impressed with the accuracy, I do not know how lethal they are but I know I do not want to be shot with one.
One area where they offer an advantage is weight savings. Saving 60 grains over a 125 grain 9mm bullet, a 16 round mag would save 960 grains, or 2.19 ozs.
 
golden said:
For the moment, I do not see an LEA going to a non-expanding bullet. However, the military has a constant problem with the HAGUE Convention, so maybe a military or military controlled law enforcement agency might try them.
If I remember right, one of the reasons for developing the FEDERAL "Guard Dog" rounds (also known as expanding full metal case ammo) was military interest.
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The U.S. military actually does not have a problem using jhp. It never has had a problem with it.
 
Tipoc,

Is the standard issue 9m.m. round used by the U.S. military a hollow point?

Jim
 
roo_ster said:
lehigh phillips head screwdriver bullets are not what will eventuslly replace jhp. any more than glasers replaced jhp. if you werent alive in the 1980s, glasers were a gimmick/trick/novelty cartridge that some gunnies bought back then. good marketing had folks buying it up like the lehighstuff nowadays.
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I'm one of the world's greatest skeptics & every new ammo/bullet design which comes along stirs in me the Glaser safety slug. I know it shouldn't but it does. Anyone one remember Jeff Cooper's statement on the Glaser?
 
golden said:
Tipoc,

Is the standard issue 9m.m. round used by the U.S. military a hollow point?

Jim
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It is one of the options that they have available to them.

"The ammunition accompanying the M17 includes the M1152 FMJ and the M1153 Special
Purpose loads. There are actually four, and they are described in part in government documents as: “Ball, Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP), Drilled Dummy Inert (DDI) and Blank.” While it is pretty obvious what the dummies and blanks are for—I’ll skip them—the uses for the M1152 and M1153 are given as “The Ball cartridge is intended for use against enemy personnel, for training, and for force protection. The JHP cartridge is required for use in situations where limited over-penetration of targets is necessary to reduce collateral damage.” In case you didn’t catch it, “Special Purpose” equals “jacketed hollow point.”

The Army’s lawyers determined that the use of hollow points by troops does not violate the Hague Convention of 1899. Army Col. Brian Stehle, who was the head of Project Manager Soldier Weapons, was quoted in a military.com article, “We have a law of war determination that stated that this type of ammunition is usable.” Other “Special Purpose” rounds, including open tip match (OTM) and .45 JHPs have already been used by Special Operations troops for some time."

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/4/23/m1152-m1153-the-army-s-new-9-mm-luger-loads/

In addition the U.S. military was using expanding ammo for snipers back in Viet Nam and in military actions since that time.

It's the fact though that ball ammo is more useful for most military purposes due to it's superior penetration. Low cost of production and general durability are pluses as well.

The Hague Conventions only limited certain types of expanding ammo in warfare between the signatories of the conventions. The U.S. did not sign, though they agreed to abide by them. With any government or nation that did not sign there were no barriers to the ammo used. There were also no limitations on the ammo or ordnance used against non governmental forces (Moro fighters, Al Queda, Viet Cong, etc.)

For all practical purposes the Hague Conventions were never a limitation on the U.S. military of any significance.

It's also worth pointing out that by the time the Conventions were adopted the type ammo they were speaking of was antiquated in military rifles.
 
Tipoc,

If the U.S. government agreed to abide by the restrictions of the HAGUE Convention, then they are a limitation, even if not binding.

Also, the OTM ammo (Open Tipped Match) was not designed to expand. The open tip (hollow point) was included to increase accuracy. It had no effect on stopping power.

Jim
 
Some practical considerations:

For practice ammo, ball ammo is hard to beat. If your defensive round is jhp it's very easy to find ball ammo in the same weight, velocity and that shoots to the same point of aim in ball ammo. If the jhp costs $25. for a box of 20 rounds than the ball can be found for $12. for a box of 50. Most shooters shoot their defensive loads occasionally at the range but reply on fmj for practice, drills, etc. This saves a good deal of the cost.

Finding the equivalent in a 90 gr. Lehigh Extreme is a bit harder. A 115 gr. fmj that hits the same velocity and shoots to the same point of aim is, I assume, harder to find. Though I admit I've not tried that. Consider the same for 40 S&W or 45 acp.

So, right now the Lehigh ammo cost about the same as quality jhp ammo. But locating less expensive practice ammo may, in some cases, be an issue.

Right now most quality JHP (edited because I incorrectly put in FMJ) ammo is very good. It's built to perform to the standards for penetration and expansion, after passing through specific barriers, set by the FBI back in the early 90's. It has set a high standard. Penetration is also set to be limited 12 to 18" after passing though barriers. Since the Lehigh ammo is built not to expand it's more difficult to judge it one against the other.

The screw driver shape of the light for caliber bullet, is there to increase the damage to tissue done by the bullet as it rotates. The bullet must penetrate through whatever barriers there may be, including clothing, and still spin with enough energy left to cause the additional trauma to the tissue. Once encountering an object the rotation of the bullet will, in material and flesh, cause the spin to slow and the round to expend a greater amount of energy than a fmj round in both spinning and penetration. Like the expansion of the hollowpoint the spin will retard penetration as it expends energy. It also does not have as much momentum to assist the penetration as a heavier round would. How much energy and how and if this affects performance is a question I have.

So right now I'm still looking for the up side to this ammo that makes it a practical choice for regular use.

Also I always look funny at anything named Extreme!
 
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golden said:
Tipoc,

If the U.S. government agreed to abide by the restrictions of the HAGUE Convention, then they are a limitation, even if not binding.

Also, the OTM ammo (Open Tipped Match) was not designed to expand. The open tip (hollow point) was included to increase accuracy. It had no effect on stopping power.

Jim
Click to expand...

Earlier you said that the Hague conventions of small arms ammo was a "constant problem". As I pointed out this was not true.

The largest limitation to the U.S. military in the use of expanding rounds was the lack of reliable expanding bullets (JHP) till the latter part of the last century. Either handgun or long gun.

It's worth a study of what the changes in the transition from black powder to smokeless back in the last years of the 1800's and the early 1900's meant for bullet design for military weaponry. By the time the Hague Conventions were signed the ammo they looked to block was largely obsolete for military use.

As you can see I quoted an article from the Keefe Report in American Rifleman. In that piece he mentioned OTM bullet. Argue that with him.
 
tipoc said:
Some practical considerations:

For practice ammo, ball ammo is hard to beat. If your defensive round is jhp it's very easy to find ball ammo in the same weight, velocity and that shoots to the same point of aim in ball ammo. If the jhp costs $25. for a box of 20 rounds than the ball can be found for $12. for a box of 50. Most shooters shoot their defensive loads occasionally at the range but reply on fmj for practice, drills, etc. This saves a good deal of the cost.

Finding the equivalent in a 90 gr. Lehigh Extreme is a bit harder. A 115 gr. fmj that hits the same velocity and shoots to the same point of aim is, I assume, harder to find. Though I admit I've not tried that. Consider the same for 40 S&W or 45 acp.

So, right now the Lehigh ammo cost about the same as quality jhp ammo. But locating less expensive practice ammo may, in some cases, be an issue.

Right now most quality fmj ammo is very good. It's built to perform to the standards for penetration and expansion, after passing through specific barriers, set by the FBI back in the early 90's. It has set a high standard. Penetration is also set to be limited 12 to 18" after passing though barriers. Since the Lehigh ammo is built not to expand it's more difficult to judge it one against the other.

The screw driver shape of the light for caliber bullet, is there to increase the damage to tissue done by the bullet as it rotates. The bullet must penetrate through whatever barriers there may be, including clothing, and still spin with enough energy left to cause the additional trauma to the tissue. Once encountering an object the rotation of the bullet will, in material and flesh, cause the spin to slow and the round to expend a greater amount of energy than a fmj round in both spinning and penetration. Like the expansion of the hollowpoint the spin will retard penetration as it expends energy. It also does not have as much momentum to assist the penetration as a heavier round would. How much energy and how and if this affects performance is a question I have.

So right now I'm still looking for the up side to this ammo that makes it a practical choice for regular use.

Also I always look funny at anything named Extreme!
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You've got some good points regarding POA/POI with lighter weight bullets. And whilst we could pontificate, the easiest thing to do if someone is interested in this ammo is to buy some and test it. I did that with my G42 and Underwood .380acp +p 65gr XD. At 15yds, I'm driving the dot with that ammo and hitting a little high on the bull. With a 90gr FTX, I cut the bull horizontally with the front sight and hit the same place. That's maybe at most 1.25" lower than the 90gr at 15yds. So that ammo in that gun isn't a problem for me. Other guns chambered in other calibers? Can't say. But some people practice with weak 9mm 115gr, and then carry 124 or 147gr +p or +p+. Also, at ranges most people assume they would need a defensive handgun, the POI change will be pretty minimal. But some people like to practice with as close to what they carry as possible. For those people, this could be a concern.

The screwdriver shape doesn't create fluid transfer by spinning. It creates it by compression. The bullet would work without rotation, provided it flew straight. But bullets need rifling to stabilize. Infact, if these bullets traveled at the same speed but didn't spin, they might create even more damage, as they'd cut an X through whatever soft tissue they went through. But with rotation, that damage from each of the four flutes is spread out through the rotation.

Now the reduction in velocity caused by the bullet going through barriers, will cause a reduction in damage after that barrier, because the wounding is directly related to velocity. But they don't clog up or deform like JHPs can. So there's that. And I'd argue that if the barrier was strong enough to greatly reduced the speed of the projectile, it could very likely ruin a JHP. The damage in both gel and meat with and without 3/4" plywood barrier is covered in the "joint agency testing" PDF.

I do agree with you about the bad choice of name. "Xtreme" is not a great branding for something designed to be potentially lethal.
 
Just something else on the Hague accords and the 1907 follow-up. This is a useful article.

https://sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-ad... 1899,armies engaged in international warfare.


"The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use of bullets which readily expand or flatten in the human body by national armies engaged in international warfare.

The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state."


"A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage.

In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

Finally catching up, current U.S. military lawyers argue that that the shift to jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammunition by conventional forces does not increase suffering and reduces risk to non-combatants."

Sierra does not recommend the Matchking for hunting as it will not expand as explosively or as reliably as their hunting rounds:

"In 1995, Sierra worked with military ordnance experts to produce a superior long-range bullet for the M21, M24 and M40A1 sniper systems. The result was the new 175 grain #2275 MatchKing® bullet. This bullet has also generated considerable interest among competitive Service Rifle match shooters. A higher ballistic coefficient compared to the 168 grain bullet (#2200) allows it to remain supersonic at 1000 yards when fired from 308/7.62mm caliber Service Rifles."

"While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts."

https://www.sierrabullets.com/product/30-caliber-7-62mm-175-gr-hpbt-matchking/

The military never-the-less saw that it did expand and used it. Just as many hunters allow that it has expanded. Golden is correct that it was more selected for it's accuracy.

"FUN HISTORY FACT: The Imperial German Army in WW1 knew a few things about effective weapons. They had deployed flame throwers, poison gas, machine guns and high explosives. In 1918, the German’s ran into Americans carrying the Model 97 Trench Guns (a 12 gauge pump shotgun) shooting 00 buckshot. They filed a diplomatic complaint that the shotgun was cruel and illegal citing the 1907 Hague Convention. When the Americans laughed at this, the German Army threatened to execute soldiers caught with shotguns. Challenge accepted! American General Pershing replied that Germans caught with flamethrowers or saw-bladed bayonets would be shot.

Hollow point bullets are commonly used by law enforcement agencies and citizens who carry handguns for self-defense because of reduced risk of from ricocheted bullets and over-penetration. A fortuitous side effect is faster incapacitation of a threat. U.S. Army Military Police have been authorized to use hollow points on bases since 2010."

My point here is that the Accords of 1898 and 1907 have not been a serious impediment to the U.S. or other imperialist nations that signed the accords to carrying out warfare with whatever they saw they needed.
 
I'd be interested to hear from out THR members in AK. I correspond with some folks from there and follow a few AK gun channels. Mostly this is because where I live in SW Montana is the closest thing in the CONUS to AK as far as critters. It seems like Underwood Extreme Penetrator is 10mm is starting to out-sell hard cast. It appears that the AK folks are convinced of the utility of the Leheigh bullet against dangerous game. I have literally zero experience with them; seen 'em in stores but never fired one. So I am just going by reports.
 
whm1974 said:
Why would you believe that ARX Bullets are less likely to go through drywall? There are not any bullets that drywall will stop...
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ARX bullets do indeed go through drywall. They are frangible and will break apart when contacting hard surfaces. I've shot them through 2x4's without any problem.
 
tipoc said:
Right now most quality fmj ammo is very good. It's built to perform to the standards for penetration and expansion, after passing through specific barriers, set by the FBI back in the early 90's. It has set a high standard. Penetration is also set to be limited 12 to 18" after passing though barriers. Since the Lehigh ammo is built not to expand it's more difficult to judge it one against the other.
Click to expand...


Huh?

No one tests ball ammo. It's going to penetrate way more than the 12-18". Also most fmj ammo isn't going to expand.
 
rskent said:
Do these rounds address the issue of overpenetration at all?
Click to expand...

From what I've seen, most stop between 12-20" in testing. Largely dependent on velocity and what barriers if any are used.

Is over penetration an issue with hollow points? Usually only if they don't expand, right?
 
"Right now most quality fmj ammo is very good. It's built to perform to the standards for penetration and expansion, after passing through specific barriers, set by the FBI back in the early 90's. It has set a high standard. Penetration is also set to be limited 12 to 18" after passing though barriers. Since the Lehigh ammo is built not to expand it's more difficult to judge it one against the other."

My error I intended it to read JHP.
 
Like I said earlier, and others have said, the best way to get to know this ammo is to go shoot it.

The idea for this type ammo isn't brand spanking new.

The ARX bullet showed up 7-8 years ago as I recall with similar claims. It was a "polymer-copper matrix" bullet.

"Upon entering soft tissue, the specially designed grooves in the nose harness the soft tissue and constrict, pressurize and eject it at 1.5 to 2 times the directional speed of the bullet. This is the well-known Venturi Effect. As the bullet penetrates, it tumbles in a controlled, predictable fashion that delivers consistent terminal performance that equals or exceeds conventional hollow-point designs without over penetrating."

https://www.inceptorammo.com/inceptor-product/preferred-defense/

The basic design was bought by Ruger.

"From the research and development laboratory of PolyCase Ammunition, through Ruger's extensive testing, the flagship ARX projectile has established itself as the next generation of highly effective self-defense ammunition. Achieved through advanced design and materials science, the unique bullet profile transfers maximum energy to the target from a fluid dynamic effect. By design, the non-expanding Ruger ARX exploits the bullet's velocity to redirect energy laterally via flutes in the bullet ogive. This effect results in stopping power and terminal performance that rivals that of many expanding handgun bullets."

https://ruger.com/news/2015-10-07a.html



Lehigh defense stated similar in it's announcements:

"First, the nose design of the Xtreme Penetrator utilizes radial flutes to force the hydraulic energy inward, then (as the energy is restricted) accelerate outward creating high pressure spikes that damage surrounding tissue. The resulting permanent wound cavity is two to four times greater than that of a flat or ball nose bullet and often larger than traditional expanding bullets – exceptional penetration coupled with a larger permanent wound cavity.

Second, the nose incorporates sharp cutting edges that rotate at the same rate as the barrel twist to ensure effective penetration of any barrier. Where flat nose and ball nose bullets tend to push material away, the Xtreme Penetrator nose has minimal surface area, which causes an increase in force at the point of barrier contact (in the pounds/inch formula, when you decrease the square inches of surface area, you increase the pounds of force)."

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/08/lehigh-defense-announces-xtreme-penetrator-ammo/

This bullet design is an option that some can try and use. What that means is that, in just under a decade, the design of this ammo has made some headway. It is very far from replacing jacketed hollow point ammo and other designs that are proven for generations for self defense or hunting. The goal should be to get a place at the table no matter how small, that's a start. It maybe has that.
 
WrongHanded said:
From what I've seen, most stop between 12-20" in testing. Largely dependent on velocity and what barriers if any are used.

Is over penetration an issue with hollow points? Usually only if they don't expand, right?
Click to expand...
And they often don't expand thru shorter barrels or thru barriers that clog them up, or both, right?
 
rskent said:
Do these types of non expanding rounds address the issue of overpenetration at all?
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The ARX rounds are designed to tumble 180° to slow forward travel and to minimize over penetration.

HERE'S a gel test that demonstrates the barrier blindness and deceleration after penetrating the gel in excess of 1300 fps.
 
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Just use a big, slow moving, heavy, low pressure .45 semi-wadcutter with FMJ. Heck, a good near miss will knock 'em down from the wind as it goes by, lol.

I'm a .45ACP ONLY guy. I know, I know...but I'm old. I know things. Lol!
 
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