Hard to seat primers. First time using a RCBS 90200 hand-held.

Do you have some Factory ammo you could measure?

eyeshot said:

Not really sure what the "you'll develop a feeling or touch for how far to seat it" means. I have to go to full stop to seat between .002-.005. Is this normal?

Hopefully, there is enough information for someone to tell me or guess at what is going on.

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Seat those primers hard and deep. I use press priming, bench primer and hand primers and even with hand primers, can seat different brand primers (CCI, Fiocchi, Magtech, PMC, S&B, Tula, Winchester, Wolf) to .004"-.008" below flush.

Here's US Army Marksmanship Unit's take on primer seating depth - http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/01/primer-seating-depth-uniformity-and-accuracy/

Primers are shipped with anvil feet not in contact with priming compound (Likely done for safety reasons so primers won't detonate during hard shipping and handling and bumpy truck rides). Notice anvil feet sticking way outside the primer cup? To set the anvil tip against the priming compound, you need to not only seat the primer cup but deep enough for the anvil feet to slide up inside those cups.



Primer anvils come in different shapes and have different tips. When we seat primers, we need to ensure the anvil tips are properly set (contacting the priming compound) to reliably ignite the priming compound.



Color you see is really not the color of priming compound rather the color of barrier seal or sealant.



So when we seat primers, "feel of seating primers" some members talk about is two separate actions that really cannot be felt when press priming but can be felt with some hand priming tools - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11386382


And depending on headstamp of brass and make of primers, dimensions can vary, not to mention primer pockets being cut/swaged by reloaders when military crimps are removed so actual primer cup depth may not be consistent and seating primers to flush may not ensure the anvil tips are property set against the priming compound - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11403561

If you have some factory ammo, take a look at the "properly" seated primers and you will notice flattening of primer cup top and measure the depth and you will notice they are seated several thousandths below flush.

And as others posted, primers vary by cup hardness and some brand primer cups flatten more than others when seated. Generally, CCI primer cups are considered harder than other brands like Winchester with Federal being softer. (BTW, when seating SR/LR primers for semi-auto rifles, I like to seat them at least .004" below flush to prevent slam fires)

Below are different brand SP primers and CCI SR primers seated to typical .004" below flush and to extreme "crush depth" .008" below flush using Lee Auto Prime hand primer and notice the flattening of the primer cup. And don't worry, they all went "bang" reliably. So put some "Ooomph" behind your priming tool and really seat those primers.

eyeshot said:

Issue with both handheld and single stage. The RP won't seat below flush with the ram and the S&W and Win are just at flush to .001. I think it's the shell holder and will ordering another to verify.

I cannot seat, below flush with the handheld unless I take it to the stop. I have to use two hands to do this and I'm not a little guy so something is amiss.

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Inspect the primer pockets to ensure there is no debri at the bottom of the primer pocket. I usually don't have issues with typical fouling as when reloading on a progressive press, primers are seated without cleaning the pockets.

So if the primer pockets are clean, there may be something else that's preventing the primers from seating fully.

Only other thing I have noticed, especially with once-fired brass and certain headstamp brass with tighter primer pockets is the diameter of primer cups.

Once-fired brass have tighter/smaller primer pockets which enlarge gradually as repeatedly reloaded and fired. Some metric primers like Fiocchi, Wolf, Tula, etc. seem to have very slightly larger diameter primer cups and are harder to seat in certain headstamp brass. Trying to seat Fiocchi in once-fired S&B or RWS brass is a "no go" as I can't even seat the primer cup flush so I have sorted S&B/RWS brass out to be primed with domestic brand primers or Magtech (Made in Brazil). Due to this, I may not buy more Fiocchi primers when my current stock runs out.

However, there is silver lining to this. If you have brass with enlarged primer pockets (Usually end of life sign), using slightly larger diameter primers can extend the usable life of brass a bit longer.

Walkalong said:

Just the old standard RCBS hand primer, I think it was the only one they offered back then.

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If you were my age, I'd more suspect the weakening hands!.......but you're a spring chicken so that's not it....

Walkalong said:

Well they have, and that's the issue, hand pain after 3 or 4 hundred with the new ones vs being able to do 5 or 6 hundred with no hand pain with the old one.

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Same same, here. I used to just mash the crap out of my old Lee hand prime... 1000's of primers. I finally broke it and switched to the RCBS... and thank goodness. I've started to get arthritis (or painful joint disorder, or just plain old 'you are getting too old for this-ness') in my right thumb... and there is no way I could use the old Lee without pain.

Really, honest and true, my favorite primer system is the old press top unit I got with my RCBS RS3 press many moons ago... but it's quite slow, you have to handle each and every primer. Unlike other press systems, you prime this one on the upstroke, and with a gentle hand on the lever, you can feel everything going on during seat.

Walkalong said:

Well they have, and that's the issue, hand pain after 3 or 4 hundred with the new ones vs being able to do 5 or 6 hundred with no hand pain with the old one.

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Do I need to make a video of me priming a quick 1000 with my pinkie finger using the APS bench primer? never mind.....I'm getting too old for even easy stuff.....

I had this issue just a couple minutes ths ago priming 9mm WCC-12 cases . I can barely get them to zero and many are above zero .

I use the RCBS universal hand primer and have big gorilla hands that have no problem seating primers . I mean half the time need to be careful not to smash the primers down to much but these WCC cases are giving me trouble . I still need to investigate the problem more to figure out why . They are NATO cases and I either removed the crimp or they pass my swage test , I have primer pocket uniformers which I should check and see if they need to be cut deeper .

I said minutes but meant months .

These discussions about hand pain is exactly why I avoided the hand primers.

The RCBS bench primer makes this effortless.

I really didn't pay much attention to the priming process till reading these posts. I use a LEE turret press and single stage it. I have used Winchester white box, blue box, Tula CCi, S&B, Wolf LP. Wolf is the only one I have a problem seating in .45 ACP . I can feel the primers enter and seat firmly in .38/357. 9MM is no problem. After priming and placing in the loading block I run my finger over the top of each case to feel that the primer is seated, not paying much attention to depth as long as it is not proud. My question is how do you measure the depth of the primer after it's seated? Is there a guage for this.

Back end/bottom of your calipers , you can use the part that sticks out as a depth gsuge

All primers, like all primer pockets, unfortunately are not created equal. Like everything else the hand loader / reloader faces there are tolerances. Things look a little like this:



While a common caliper is not quite the picture of accuracy most do good enough to measure a primer pocket depth and diameter as well as a primer height and diameter.

A few years back on this subject someone here mentioned using Ballistic Tools Primer Pocket Gauges which really at $10 (USD) each are a good investment. Anyway even using just a caliper you can figure if you have a primer with an outside diameter right around maximum as to allowable tolerance and a primer pocket right around minimum it's going to take some effort to deat the primer.

I always seat till I know the primers bottom out in the primer pocket. All primers look the same and a real close look reveals the anvils actually sit just above the primer cup. That is noticiable in the following image:


The example are CCI #200 large rifle but the same is true of all primers and thus the line of thinking bottom them out and then some.

Anyway, a few simple measurements will tell you if you can expect the primers to go in easy or hard. The force required will be a function of the leverage of the priming tool.

Ron

Reloadron said:

all primer pockets, unfortunately are not created equal. Like everything else the hand loader / reloader faces ... tolerances

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Especially when using mixed range brass with unknown history and whether the primer pockets were modified/swaged/cut deeper by somebody else.

Reloadron said:

I always seat till I know the primers bottom out in the primer pocket. All primers look the same and a real close look reveals the anvils actually sit just above the primer cup.

... line of thinking bottom them out and then some.

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Yes, primers do not come pre-set (anvil tip set against priming compound) from the factory likely for safety reasons and we need to pre-set them when priming our brass. Depending on the brand, amount of priming compound vs how far anvil feet sticks out of primer cup can vary.

When priming brass, if anvil feet are not in contact with bottom of primer pockets and anvil tip not in contact with priming compound, strike on primer cup may not reliably ignite the priming compound (And in some cases, strike on primer cup may simply seat the primer deeper in the pocket to allow subsequent strike to ignite the priming compound).

Another look at anvil feet sticking out.

LiveLife said:

Especially when using mixed range with unknown history and whether the primer pockets were modified/swaged/cut by somebody else.

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Ah yes, add that into the equation. I keep my brass in lots. Following clean and size I generally yank a few and check them and then prime. Takes a few moments and gives me an idea of what to expect. I do like those little Ballistic Tool gauges I linked to.

Ron

Reloadron said:

Ah yes, add that into the equation.

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Early in my reloading years, I thought flush/almost flush was good enough as I didn't want to flatten the top of primer cups when seating primers.

When I experienced misfires and inquired with seasoned match shooters, they told me primer pocket depth can vary (especially with mixed range brass I was using) and deeper pockets required deeper seated primers.

So I instituted quality control step of filling finished rounds upside down in trays that factory ammo come in (Available free at the range) and running my finger tip over the seated primers to ensure they were all slightly below flush (With target of .004" below) and no more misfires. Any high primers, I would seat the primer deeper with my hand/bench priming tools (Which can seat them to .008" below flush with "Ooomph").