Remington does it again... Bankruptcy No 2.

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The Exile said:
Remington has done without those for at least a few years now :D
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You have know idea how true that is. Remington moved the R&D group from a stand-alone facility in Elizabethtown Kentucky to Huntsville and in that move lost 60+% of the R&D team (managers, engineers, & techs). Then over the past five years since opening Huntsville they have bleed engineers to the surround companies like a stuck pig. Polaris was jokingly referred to as Remington-West and now Dynetics is Remington-East by those that use to work there.
 
mcb said:
You have know idea how true that is. Remington moved the R&D group from a stand-alone facility in Elizabethtown Kentucky to Huntsville and in that move lost 60+% of the R&D team (managers, engineers, & techs). Then over the past five years since opening Huntsville they have bleed engineers to the surround companies like a stuck pig. Polaris was jokingly referred to as Remington-West and now Dynetics is Remington-East by those that use to work there.
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It's the same at my place of employment just down the road from the original Dynetics location. Except they come here and then go to Dynetics or Aerojet after a year or two.
 
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ilbob said:
I don't know what the Navajo nation has in mind for Remington. It does not seem like something you could move to a reservation and keep it as a going business. You would need experienced engineers and skilled machinists and assemblers that would be really hard to find on a reservation.
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ilbob, I hope this isn’t too far off topic, but it appears you don’t live near a reservation. I do (about 30 miles from one) and the elemental phosphorus plant where I worked as an Instrumentation & Control Tech for 27 years was located there. I don’t have a drop of Native American blood in me, and I doubt that more than a few (maybe one out of ten) of the “experienced engineers and skilled machinists and assemblers” I worked with did either. Furthermore, I can’t remember even one of engineers or machinists that I worked with actually living on the reservation.
What I’m getting at is this - even if the Navaho Nation buys Remington, and even if they move/build the Remington factory/plant onto the reservation, it doesn’t mean the only people that will end up working there will be people that live on the reservation, let alone be Native American Navahos - far from it. :)
 
ilbob said:
brand names. I would have thought they would have at least some value to someone.
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Almost all trademarks have some value; they are always the last asset sold in a complete tear-down.

Most of that use is in rebranding. Some knife company can't flog their stamped soup-can-blade knives goes and leases the Remington name (or Marlin, DPMS, etc) name, and Academy has a new product for their shelves. Camp stoves, drink cups, belt buckles, all sorts of "biz" to tack a name upon to sell better.

I don't know what the Navajo nation has in mind for Remington. It does not seem like something you could move to a reservation
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Probably leave it right where it is to generate a big fat loss for tax purposes. If it rejuvenates, somehow, they can pump it full of casino and mining profits to "greenmail" it against other predators out there.

This is not like buying a car, that you pack up and move to your house. This is more like buying up a building full of timeshares; you don't have to manage the timeshares, you just get a cut of what they pay you.

Big business is about moving money around and getting a percentage every time it moves. If a saleable product is produced, that's a happy accident.
 
One aspect that may favor the presumptive purchaser is the sovereign nation angle. Liability concerns are a big factor when you make things like airplanes and firearms. Another layer of protection for the assets would not be a bad thing. If insurance and defense costs could be reduced, a marginal industry could once again be profitable. Lots of potential tax aspects also.
 
rust collector said:
One aspect that may favor the presumptive purchaser is the sovereign nation angle. Liability concerns are a big factor when you make things like airplanes and firearms. Another layer of protection for the assets would not be a bad thing. If insurance and defense costs could be reduced, a marginal industry could once again be profitable. Lots of potential tax aspects also.
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Then I want Lame Deer back!:(

#ArthurandLameDeerwerefriends.
:)
 
alsaqr said:
Remington was robbed and loaded down with debt by the previous owners, Cerberus Capitol Management.
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Here's a bit more detail:

Cerberus bought Remington, borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars and through a financial shell game moved the money to them and saddled Remington with the debt. When the gun buying panic of 2016 stopped, Remington could no longer service the debt. That's why Remington is bankrupt.

In order to buy Remington, Cerberus, as most private-equity firms would, created a new entity, a holding company. Instead of Cerberus buying a gun company, Cerberus put money into the holding company, and the holding company bought Remington. The entities were related but — and this was crucial — each could borrow money independently. In 2010, Cerberus had the holding company borrow $225 million from an undisclosed group of lenders, most likely hedge funds. Because this loan was risky — the lenders would be paid only if Remington made a lot of money or was sold — the holding company offered a generous interest rate of around 11 percent, much higher than a typical corporate loan. When the interest payments were due, the holding company paid them not in cash but with paid-in-kind notes, that is, with more debt. These are known as PIK notes.

The holding company now had $225 million in borrowed cash. Cerberus, meanwhile, owned most of the shares of the holding company’s stock, basically slips of paper they acquired when they created the holding company. The handoff happened next: The holding company spent most of the $225 million buying back its own stock, effectively transferring all the borrowed cash to Cerberus. Cerberus would keep that money no matter what. Meanwhile Remington continued rolling along as though nothing had happened, because Remington itself was not responsible for the holding company’s debt. Remington was just an “operating company” that the holding company owned, something that allowed the holding company to borrow money, the way you would take a necklace to a pawnshop. These were garden-variety maneuvers in a private-equity buyout. In the trade, this is called “financial engineering.” People get degrees in it.

In April 2012, Cerberus did something fateful, which probably seemed smart at the time. It had Remington borrow hundreds of millions of dollars and use it to buy the holding company’s debt, effectively transferring responsibility for the principal and the interest payments onto Remington. America’s oldest gun company now owed the money that Cerberus had used to pay itself back for having bought the company in the first place. There were plenty of sensible reasons to do this. Gun sales were high, and the debt that Remington took out was cheaper to service than the paid-in-kind debt.

But there was a catch. Because the operating company borrowed the money with a normal loan — and not with PIK notes — interest payments were required in cash. Suddenly Remington was carrying hundreds of millions of dollars in debt that, if it could not be paid, would cause the business to go bankrupt.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/01/magazine/remington-guns-jobs-huntsville.html

Check out the linked article. It's a longish read, but it explains the situation very well.
 
I have a model 700 made back in the 1990’s. I would miss Remington but there are many other great firearm manufacturers so it wouldn’t be horrible if the company went under.
 
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I doubt the Navajo are really serious. It all seems like such a terrible idea that they surely are just talking about it to make themselves look like big-time players. But who knows what private equity con men they are listening to. If they did buy Remington, I am sure their business angle would be to get police/military contracts based on some minority-ownership contracting rules. And take advantage of special tax laws for Native tribes. But even that seems dubious since the market for hunting rifles and shotguns has been contracting for decades, Remington has shut down their Bushmaster/DPMS production, and nobody wants a Remington 9mm pistol.
 
Thanks @Robert, I did find two new article I though the forum would like to see. First is about the Navajo Nations investigation into buying remington

https://navajotimes.com/rezpolitics...-investment-in-company-that-may-be-remington/

This article makes the Navajo deal seem more real and yet less developed and flushed out than many had speculated. Clearly the Navajo Nation is considering buying Remington but from the article it does not seem like there has been more than initial investigation into the possibilities rather than full on negotiation with Remington's current owners.

https://wibx950.com/more-bad-news-for-workers-at-remington-arms-in-ilion/

This second article primarily talks about the fact that as of tomorrow a large portion of the Ilion hourly employees will be put on furlough for about four weeks. The article does not tell why (Part shortage etc) but that only limited manufacturing is expected for the next four weeks. It also show just how many jobs Remington has lost over the past sever years.

Poor old Remington is hurting and it would seem that a Navajo deal to save them is not as close as the earlier news articles (initially announcing the second bankruptcy) might have implied. Lets hope another more Pro-2A party might come to the table before it's too late for Remington.
 
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mcb said:
That news article is from the first bankruptcy in 2018. Remington was still honoring it after exiting that bankruptcy.

That said you have had 6 years to get your trigger replaced. If you still haven't done it it's really on you not Remington IMHO.
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I was waiting for Remington. I received my shipping box today. I will call Remington before I ship my rifle just to make sure I will get it back.
 
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Are casinos even open for business right now? And if so, for how much longer? I am not convinced there any deep pockets here. COVID kind of upsets a lot of business paradigms, and COVID is not going away anytime soon.

In this financial climate, Remington faces a real risk of forced conversion to Chapter 7.
 
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mcb said:
Thanks @Robert, I did find two new article I though the forum would like to see. First is about the Navajo Nations investigation into buying remington

https://navajotimes.com/rezpolitics...-investment-in-company-that-may-be-remington/

This article makes the Navajo deal seem more real and yet less developed and flushed out than many had speculated. Clearly the Navajo Nation is considering buying Remington but from the article it does not seem like there has been more than initial investigation into the possibilities rather than full on negotiation with Remington's current owners.

https://wibx950.com/more-bad-news-for-workers-at-remington-arms-in-ilion/

This second article primarily talks about the fact that as of tomorrow a large portion of the Ilion hourly employees will be put on furlough for about four weeks. The article does not tell why (Part shortage etc) but that only limited manufacturing is expected for the next four weeks. It also show just how many jobs Remington has lost over the past sever years.

Poor old Remington is hurting and it would seem that a Navajo deal to save them is not as close as the earlier news articles (initially announcing the second bankruptcy) might have implied. Lets hope another more Pro-2A party might come to the table before it's too late for Remington.
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The WSJ reported yesterday that the Navajo Nation has pulled out of the deal. I don't have the link to the article, sorry
 
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1942bull said:
The article states that the Navajo Nation will purchase the assets of Remington. That means the bankruptcy receiver will get cash to distribute to creditors who will otherwise go unpaid. So the Nation will end up with all the tangible assets of Remington. That means those assets could be used as part of the formation of a new company to make guns. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
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They’ll buy and potentially resurrect a gun company who’s name is associated with guns that killed their anscestors. That ultimate revenge long game.
 
Found the article:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/navajo...o-buy-remington-out-of-bankruptcy-11595615617

Partially behind a pay wall, excerpt below:

Navajo Nation Breaks Off Talks to Buy Remington Out of Bankruptcy
The firearms manufacturer is now seeking another buyer ahead of a planned bankruptcy filing, people familiar with the matter said
im-213038?width=620&size=1.jpg
A Remington rifle was displayed at the National Rifle Association's annual meeting in Indianapolis last year.PHOTO: BRYAN WOOLSTON/REUTERS

By


Alexander Gladstone

Updated July 24, 2020 4:12 pm ET
Remington Arms Co.’s discussions with the Navajo Nation over a potential bankruptcy sale of the firearms manufacturer have fallen through, leaving the company still searching for a buyer and struggling with debt, people familiar with the matter said.

The Navajo Nation, a territory with roughly 175,000 people across parts of the Southwest, had been in advanced talks regarding a deal in which it would acquire Remington following a near-term bankruptcy filing, before the nation’s governing body decided not to move forward, one...


ETA a better link to the full article.

https://info.creditriskmonitor.com/NewsStory.aspx?NewsId=25552795&rc=U0G2Q1SR9U00GD28DM
 
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jeff-10 said:
The moral of this story is if you are a gun related business or organization (see NRA) located on the eastern seaboard that is north of North Carolina, it is time to relocate.
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Why would Ruger ever want to leave NH? NH, ME and VT are arguably the most gun friendly states in the Union. All three have constitutional carry (open and concealed), Castle Doctrine and NFA is AOK.

Me thinks you are ill informed and lumping northern New England in with the CT & MA crowd. We have special names for them... and they are none to flattering.
 
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