Defense ammo vs target ammo for handguns

golden said:

Phillip,

I am going to throw my two cents into the argument. To start with, you will be a victim and at a disadvantage in a gunfight.

My agency's firearms and non-firearms trainers like to throw in things like a run in gear and wearing a gas mask or jumping jacks or whatever to work up a sweat and raise your heartbeat. Only then do you walk into a scenario and have to shoot or not shoot. That is because, it will never be like it is on the range. Things go wrong, you are surprised, just go on that assumption. If it proves not to be the case, well then good and you were prepared for it anyway.

Remember, you will not be picking the location, time of day or night, lighting and your physical condition. You may have come in physical contact with your attacker, such as you heard a bump in the night, got your gun and came face to face with a burglar or worse. You may have been punched or kicked. That person "MAY BE SURPRISED" and now scared out of their wits, then again, they may not be. I am pretty sure, you will scared if not excited. I remember when my burglar alarm went off the first time when I was overseas (read no gun). I searched the house and found nothing and after it happened several times over a period of years, I was a lot calmer about it, especially after I got a gun.
The point here, is that you want every advantage you can get. You can shoot all the 2 inch groups you want at the range, but how will you do at three in the morning, when suddenly awoken in the dark.
My home gun is a BERETTA M9A3. It is based on this rule. It is reliable, accurate and easy for me to shoot by me, with its smooth trigger. I have 18 rounds in the gun as you will most likely not have a spare mag in your pajamas or underwear.
It has night sights, which after having them on my service guns for 25 years, I swear by. Just do one night qualification and you will probably agree. My gun also has a very bright rail light mounted on it, because you will probably grab your gun, but forget a flashlight and you may not be able to get to the light switch.
As for ammo, I practice with what I can find on sale, but load up with 9m.m. FEDERAL HST 124 grain jhp. I do not know of any ammo that works better (at least in a handgun). There are other rounds that will do just as well, but this is what I choose. It is also controllable, which is important. I expect to be at my worst when I will have to defend myself, sleepy, scared (yeah, I will admit it) and probably a little confused. I want all the advantages I can get.
I also have the same FEDERAL HST load in +P, but the increased recoil, blast, noise and especially flash at night, is enough that I do not think it is worth the trade off with the easier to shoot, standard pressure round that performs almost as well.

FMJ or BALL ammo is a bad idea when you can get something really good. Remember, no handgun round is a guaranteed stopper and fmj 9m.m.rounds are just slightly more effective than the infamous .38 Special lead round nose, aka: the widow maker.
While the military uses fmj, they usually are shooting it out of a rifle and that is only when they cannot get something bigger.

Hollow point ammo has been proven in gunfights, it does not matter what the coroner thinks about how the wounds like. The only real way to know is to observe what happened in an actual gun fight. Many police and federal agencies do that. Just try to find a police department or federal agency that DOES NOT USE HOLLOW POINT AMMO!

My agency did a lot of testing over the last 35 years and went to the most effective caliber/ammo combination it could find. We also had a lot of gun fights and found out what worked and what did not. We went to the .357, when the .38 Special +P+ did not work as well as advertised. We went to the .40 S&W, to get an auto round that worked as well as the .357. Now we have gone back to 9m.m., but using a premium bullet. Nobody wants to be the one who is known as the bean counter that cost lives.

The odds are in your favor for now, that you will never have to discover who is right in this debate, but then again, you may be unlucky enough to find out.

Just my experience,

Jim

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golden said:

Phillip,

You made a number of points.

You can laugh, but when I got in law enforcement 3 decades ago, night sight were a controversy with some saying they were a waste of time. If you knew how to hold a gun, you would hit your target was one argument. Waste of money was another. My agency had a lot of gun fights take place in unlit areas, so it was made standard on our BERETTA 96's.

When I went through the academy, we were still issuing .357 magnum revolvers and were shown that you could see your target using the muzzle flash each time your .357 went off!
Yeah, you fire a shot in the dark and look for your target! It was better than nothing and at least they gave us some night shooting, a lot of agencies did not do even that.

You do not have to spend a huge amount on ammo for training. I like to shoot 9m.m. and .40 S&W caliber ball ammo. I used to be issued 50 rounds of 9m.m. 124 grain FEDERAL Hydra-Shok +P+
for carry and 150 rounds of FEDERAL Hydra Shok (standard pressure) for practice between qualifications. I never shot the practice ammo unless I was short on cash. Before that it was 50 rounds of 115 grain +P+ and 150 rounds fmj.
I never saw any problems with this and if you buy a box of FEDERAL HST, REMINGTON Golden Sabre or SPEER Gold Dot and practice with ball ammo, I think you will do fine. I practiced with standard pressure ammo and carried +P+ and did not think it was a problem.

Still, we had some people fail to qualify. Mostly it was people who were not gun people or even interested in trying to shoot on their own. They would go to remedial and end up qualifying, if barely.
We also had 2 female officers who could not qualify. When the FI (firearms instructor) went to the assistant chief to say they had failed and could not carry a weapon, SHE did not like this and asked why. The answer was that both officers were to petite to get a good grip on the 6 shot .357 revolver. The chief said then get them a gun that fits. They was both issued RUGER SP-101's and had no problem qualifying. Some times you had to think outside the regulations to find solution to the problem.

My last ammo before my agency went back to the GLOCK 19, was the FEDERAL 180 grain HST .40 S&W. So I practiced with whatever 180 grain ball was on sale at WALMART, back when WALMART still wanted my business.
I used to use the 100 round boxes of REMINGTON 115 grain jhp for my 9m.m. practice load and while it does not expand a lot, it was much better than using ball ammo. I think if someone does some research and does not get carried away, they can find a formula to work with. In my BERETTA 92 or GLOCK 17, with their 4 inch plus barrels, I thought the REMINGTON would do well enough, but why settle for well enough when you can have something like HST? I also picked up some of the REMINGTON 115 jhp +P. Same bullet, better performance and not super expensive.

The REMINGTON ammo is cheap enough to practice with if you buy a 100 round box. You can shoot 50, 60 or 75 rounds and still have enough to carry home.

If you are using a .38 Special or .357 magnum revolver, practice with something like the REMINGTON or WINCHESTER 125 grain +P .38 Special (more former WALMART ammo) and then finish off with a qualification using your carry ammo like the FEDERAL HST round or 110 grain .357 magnum jhp. Price in the case of WINCHESTER 110 grain .357 magnum ammo and recoil are not that different, but performance is. I would say shoot a 25 or 30 round qualification and then keep the rest for carry.
You can even start off the practice with the dirt cheap AIR FORCE 130 fmj loads that kick very lightly and move up to either +P or a effective standard pressure load, starting with the HORNADY 110 grain FTX. It is a bear stopper, but could be a fight stopper.

I have gone through the limitation imposed by individual shooter's with my wife. She has arthritis in her wrists and could not hold my BERETTA M9A3 steady, even if it was empty and did not have a light on it. What to do. First find the maximum caliber, that they can use. We did that and she ended up with my GLOCK 42. It is small, but the recoil is not strong, she can comfortably work the slide and reload and she can hit what she aims at within 7 yards.
The next thing was ammo. The .380 round has a large selection of ammo, but only a small choice of effective rounds. I limited our choices to the HORNADY FTX and WINCHESTER Train & Defend, as both expand and will do so most of the time. There are some more powerful .380ACP rounds, but they recoil more and exceed her comfort level.
That is the best I can do.
I liked the GLOCK 42 enough that I bought another one. She carries my first one.
In a concealed carry situation, the rules are different in that the first rule is to have a gun and rule number two is that it should not be detectable. That avoids problems.

And if you are stuck with something smaller, then think differently. Practice failure to stop drills. One or two to the chest and then one to the head. Even a .22LR or .25 ACP can blind someone if hit in the eyes and it also disorients and hurts the attacker. The goal is to stop the threat, not kill the threat!

One other thing, if you are stuck with a .22LR, do you have a pump, lever or semi-auto .22LR rifle? I would not like to be on the receiving end of some .22LR STINGER rounds coming out of a rifle or carbine like a RUGER 10/22 or anything similar.

I disagree with the idea that 3 or 4 fmj rounds will work as well. If you are using an M-1 GARAND or M-4 Carbine, sure. Rifle fmj will put down just about anyone, but with handguns, even the .44 magnum is not guaranteed.
If you are using a handgun loaded with fmj, then you might put down the threat with 3 or 4 hits, but they may be shooting back. Then you might go through a lot of pain or die. Remember, a 22LR can kill, but it may not stop the threat. Using ball ammo increases the likelihood that you will need to fire more shots to stop the threat. The more shots you fire, the higher the risk of getting hit by return fire. There are so many horror stories of non or poorly expanding rounds not stopping a threat, it cannot be disregarded.

I especially agree with you about lack of training, but what are we going to do. Before I showed the GLOCK 42 to my wife, she was carrying a BERETTA 3032 Tomcat, which was also mine. She liked it so much, especially the tip up barrel that I had to give it to her. Later on, she questioned the Tomcat's stopping power. She had heard stupid lines like, "IF I SHOOT THEM, IT WILL JUST MAKE THEM MAD".
I told her to think of it as an icepick and that no one wants to get stabbed with an icepick. Then think of it as a 30 foot long icepick and start shooting when the threat is across the room and not 6 feet from you!

If I was having problems with recoil and I am ( I sold off my .45ACP, .41 and .44 magnums as they were becoming work to shoot), I would go with something that was still comfortable and would maximize the round.
I bought one of those BERETTA .32ACP model 82 police trade ins during one of the President OB AMA ammo shortages. I could not find .380ACP jhp to save my life. On the other had, .32ACP ball was quit common and cheap. The model 82, is a .32ACP version of the BERETTA model 85 .380ACP Cheetah pistol. It has a single column magazine, double action trigger, the same easy to see sights and easy to hold grips as the model 85. It is VERY easy to shoot well and BERETTA reliable. If I had to shoot a light recoiling round, this would be it. I could have and still may use it with the hammer down on a load chamber and a full magazine. It has a frame mounted safety that allows it to be used with the hammer cocked on a loaded round.
I also had a COLT 1903 in .32ACP and it was a great gun to shoot, with recoil like a .22LR. I would have kept it condition 3, with the chamber empty and a full magazine of either fmj, FIOCCHI XTP jhp or COR BON Powerball.
I at one time carried a WALTHER PPK in .32ACP off duty. It was a great gun and very concealable. Recoil was not hard at all, but heavier than the above guns. I still consider it adequate for concealed carry, but prefer my GLOCK 42 now.

Strangely enough, before my wife and I met, many eons ago, she worked for the U.S. MARSHALL'S and had to qualify with a .38 Special for guard work. After we met, I got her a GLOCK 19 and she loved it, but the arthritis put an end to that love affair, even with standard velocity ammo as she could not rack the slide reliably.


As to training. I would like to see EVERYONE IN THE USA TRAINED TO SHOOT and SAFELY HANDLE A GUN in high school. It would not have to be military or LEO grade, just handing and demystifying what guns are and should be. It should be mandatory. In families that have guns and use them and train properly, accidents are rare. On the other hand, if you get your gun handling skills and knowledge from the internet, tv or some fool down the block who acts cool, it is a recipe for disaster.
I would exempt conscientious objectors, as long as they sign a form recognizing the dangers they are placing their family in and to be saved for later when it could be introduced as evidence in one of the endless law suits our country is becoming addicted to.

I agree with shoot what you know, but also maximize what you shoot!

I apologize for turning this into a book length posting.

Jim

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Trunk Monkey said:

This is a little iffy because you can get good quality guns such as a first generation M&P Shield for around that price range. My EDC is a Glock 26.

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