Feeling kinda left out of these new whiz-bang discussions?

Dave DeLaurant said:

Depends on the argument and which end of the club you're on. I was once forced off the road and accosted by a loopy motorist with a golf club who believed all bicyclists belonged on the sidewalk. I was in no position to remind him that, unlike most other riders, I was following vehicle code rules for bicycles. Thank the maker for helmets! Got me a CCW permit soon after.

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While I agree with road rage.
I don't agree with bicycles having the same rights on the road as a vehicle that's fuel pays the taxes to pay for maintaining the road.

Bfh_auto said:

While I agree with road rage.
I don't agree with bicycles having the same rights on the road as a vehicle that's fuel pays the taxes to pay for maintaining the road.

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Vehicles don't have rights, people have rights. A man on a bicycle, or a man walking has the same rights as a man in a car.

Bfh_auto said:

I don't agree with bicycles having the same rights on the road as a vehicle that's fuel pays the taxes to pay for maintaining the road.

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Maybe you need to take that up with your state legislators. In some areas, it’s illegal to ride a bike on the sidewalk.

Anyway, back to firearms related topics

Hey let's get back to the Whiz-bangs!

I will say this @Picher

I've been into and around guns, hunting, and shooting my whole life. I've owned plenty of calibers and makes. My favorite would have to be 7mm Rem Mag. Have found myself owning more of it than any other caliber. I really love bolt action rifles,,, (deer rifles) as we grew up calling them.

I'll be 41yrs old in September and I just bought my first 30-06 a few weeks ago. For whatever reason I feel like I just bought the latest greatest thing!

CptnAwesome said:

Hey let's get back to the Whiz-bangs!

I will say this @Picher

I've been into and around guns, hunting, and shooting my whole life. I've owned plenty of calibers and makes. My favorite would have to be 7mm Rem Mag. Have found myself owning more of it than any other caliber. I really love bolt action rifles,,, (deer rifles) as we grew up calling them.

I'll be 41yrs old in September and I just bought my first 30-06 a few weeks ago. For whatever reason I feel like I just bought the latest greatest thing!

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You did. As the late, great Townsend Whelen said, "The .30-06 is never a mistake."

Picher said:

Somebody once wrote, "Don't be the first to try the new, nor the last to dispose of the old" (or something like that). I think we shooters/gun owners sometimes tend to do both, perhaps even at the same time.

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My favorite pistol is a 1911, and I bought a Valkyrie barrel just a little bit too early...

I was always a wiz bang lover and chaser....problem is what I liked and sought when I was younger are now standard fare and the constant changing latest thing has continued to move. I currently have cartridges based on the 308 case from midlife build's now and find them pleasant to shoot and easy to load for, the AI's, weatherby's, norma's, and even the 6.5-284 are pretty much status quo now. I do intend to build one more rifle and the 6.5PRC has my attention, good looking round that I think I would enjoy. Embrace the old and the new! First buck came with a Win 94 30/30 iron sights maybe the final ones will fall to the PRC Good thread by the way.......

Picher said:

Your rifle is very nice! The stock has a bit more drop than I look for. Do you have any problems with face-slapping recoil?

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I don't run my .270 handloads very hot and mostly shoot this one off the bench, so it's given me no grief from recoil. My relatively long face and the relatively high scope rings may also contribute.

What I particularly like is its post-war FN action -- butter smooth for a Mauser. I think the receiver and/or bolt on this action has a bit harder surface than any of my other 98s.

Varminterror said:

Is it worse to know you’ve become close-minded, or to walk around totally ignorant and unaware of it?

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I KNOW that guy, and he's happy as a clam, it's the rest of us that suffer.

Cartridge debates can be fun, and I can usually argue either side depending on my mood. Even for cartridges/calibers I disliked, for what ever reason(s) I have.
But mostly it's just talking about stuff with other folks interested in the same basic thing. We each hold different opinions, some vehemently, and that fine. Most of us on here have been doing this long enough (I'm 37, so admittedly my experience level isn't has high as most folks on here) to have be able to pick out personal preference in lieu of objectivity.
If feeling irrelevant, or left out, start a thread about stuff you like, and I'm sure we'll all pile in to argue about that, especially if there are pictures.....

As to actual cartridge design/evolution, I'm with the guys who believe we're at the point where everything is a miniscule improvement. I like, and try, many if the new cartridges. I also realize that if I want to be "different" I can always apply some of the new(old) design features (fast twist, sharp shoulders and straight cases), to "classic" cartridges, and have a hybrid to argue about. Is it actually better? meh... sometimes, mostly it's just different enough for me to have something to talk about with friends.

Vern Humphrey said:

Vehicles don't have rights, people have rights. A man on a bicycle, or a man walking has the same rights as a man in a car.

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Travel on a roadway is a privilege, not a right. We are required to pay registration/taxes to be allowed to travel on publicly funded roadways. A person on a bicycle, in most states, does NOT have the privilege to travel on roadways equally to a motor vehicle, which HAS paid for the privilege. For example, bicycles in KS can ride no wider than 3ft from the white edge-line, and multiple riders cannot ride more than 2 cycles wide. Riders have the same burden of responsibility to act in accordance with the same laws as motor vehicles, but they also have additional restrictions. Just the same as a man on a lawnmower or a tractor or ATV has additional restrictions to allow them limited privileges for use on public roadways; limited in comparison to conventional motor vehicle traffic.

Varminterror said:

Travel on a roadway is a privilege, not a right. We are required to pay registration/taxes to be allowed to travel on publicly funded roadways. A person on a bicycle, in most states, does NOT have the privilege to travel on roadways equally to a motor vehicle, which HAS paid for the privilege. For example, bicycles in KS can ride no wider than 3ft from the white edge-line, and multiple riders cannot ride more than 2 cycles wide. Riders have the same burden of responsibility to act in accordance with the same laws as motor vehicles, but they also have additional restrictions. Just the same as a man on a lawnmower or a tractor or ATV has additional restrictions to allow them limited privileges for use on public roadways; limited in comparison to conventional motor vehicle traffic.

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Which doesn't prove people on foot or on bicycles have no rights, or that paying road use tax (via the gasoline tax) conveys special rights.

Dave DeLaurant said:

Reply retracted. It was a mistake to include an off-topic recollection here that caused the discussion stray from firearms. Not suitable THR behavior on my part and I apologize for it.

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To reiterate, I should never have even hinted that I once rode a bicycle.

How about we stick to rifles on a rifle forum? Before this thread gets shut down?

Since the thread is just a Fudd post complaining about new products from the outset, with a pinch of self-pity, I’m not certain the point in hoping to avoid a lockdown? I’d be glad to open THR and not see this particular thread on the top page tomorrow.

I think we should just stick to cartridges that are based off of the 30-06 hull. That won't give us much to argue about, except maybe a dozen or two.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

Ole Joe Clark said:

I think we should just stick to cartridges that are based off of the 30-06 hull. That won't give us much to argue about, except maybe a dozen or two.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

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I can think of maybe 60+ semi common standard and wildcats, if we include the family tree of the 250/300Savage, and 308 offerings...
Just the 03/06 cases, probably 20 or 30, maybe more.

I can always tell y'all how great my old Mini-14 was.

Pitcher, I always pay attention to your posts. You know more than the average bear. Always a treat to see your posts!

Old dogs can learn new tricks! Guns and ammo are technology products and technology advances with time. New sales and new product offerings are a part of capitalism. Someone is willing to take the risk of failure (and gain/loss of real money) to offer a product in the hopes that people will buy. Not every product offering is going to stick, but that doesn't mean that we should freeze time and declare a pinnacle with no further advancement. The state of an art keeps changing.

I could see how someone could feel left behind on newer calibers and how a lot of rifles are constructed today. Going to a gun shop, there are chassis rifles with pistol grips, long barrels, and AR accessories on the shelf next to a the few "wood and blue" hunting rifles left, surrounded by a heaping pile of "plastic and nitride" budget friendly rifles with detachable plastic mags.

The tastes and preferences of people today are far different. I would disagree about categorizing changes in the gun market as impressing people or ego drive. Surely, that may be true in part, but is not the complete explanation.

I think some of it has to do with what's on "paper." We are an information driven people. Right now, marketing has an obsession with ballistic coefficient and being able to say that a certain rifle in a certain caliber CAN shoot a target [enter impressive number here] yards away. Most people don't belong to a range or have land that can test that marketing claim. Most people will never shoot their rifle that far. Most will never handload or purchase ammo that can attain that level of consistency at extended yardage. Most will never practice enough to have that kind of skill at that distance. Some are smart enough to realize that hunting at extended ranges may not be practical or ethical, even if it's on youtube.

However, I agree to the point that people like to say that this caliber can shoot out to [enter impressive number here] yards - even if they don't have the quality of gun, quality of ammo, or skill to do it.

Furthermore, the tsunami like marketing has overwhelmed the competitive scene in that the general gun buying public believes that certain wiz-bang calibers are the absolute best, when they have already been surpassed by other, even lesser known calibers.

Tack on the realization that today's young men are typically first introduced to firearms via video games - a media that didn't exist until the late 70's, early 80's. Gaming is so huge that people watch a live broadcast over the internet of other people playing "last player/team standing" (battle royale, BR) style video games that include aesthetically digital copies of all these real life wiz-bang firearms. Game players may have never even shot a firearm before, but that is basis of their knowledge, for good or bad.

So today, while we have:

The largest amount of entry level hunting rifles ever.
Some of the best budget glass ever.
And we see that fixed power scopes have gained a second life as prism scopes on AR rifles.

We recognize that "wood and blue" had years of use, character, and familiarity; but never had a soul to begin with. "Nitride and plastic" is here to stay as long as people buy into low prices on the bottom of the line and tactical functionality at the top of the line. "Stainless and plastic" is here to stay for the all weather upgrade. And that the detachable mag fed semi-auto is America's rifle.

It seems to me that at one time or another every cartridge ever made was the latest and greatest.

I still have my favorites even if I can't shoot them anymore. Walnut and blue steel are by far my favorite to use at range or hunting, my last one, bought used, a win 670 in 3006 wad given to my SIL as well as a cheap axis 2 in 223 the latter for less expensive trigger time. It made him a rifleman.

CptnAwesome said:

I've been into and around guns, hunting, and shooting my whole life. I've owned plenty of calibers and makes. My favorite would have to be 7mm Rem Mag. Have found myself owning more of it than any other caliber. I really love bolt action rifles,,, (deer rifles) as we grew up calling them.

I'll be 41yrs old in September and I just bought my first 30-06 a few weeks ago. For whatever reason I feel like I just bought the latest greatest thing!

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There's nothing wrong with bolt action rifles or .30-06. And for you, it is the "latest greatest" because it's "new to you". (IIRC, Winchester chambered M1895's in .30-06 among others before they brought out models 54 and 70.) Do you handload? IMR4064 and Hornady's 150gr Interlocks... SP or RN... can be argued as good hunting loads and I've seen it work.

A lot of the guys who act like you gotta have the "latest greatest", though... they don't seem to realize the AR-15 and .223/5.56 are right at 63 years old. They also, many times, don't seem to realize Glocks are pushing 50, and their "latest greatest" 9x19 they point to is older than the .45ACP they deride as obsolete. Somebody could have a 1911A1/.45 on their belt and say, to someone packing a S&W Model 10, "I see you're going retro"... which one's really the more retro?

When .30-30 was new, it was cutting edge. It's always had fans and detractors. Jack O'Connor included a chapter in "The Hunting Rifle" (1970). It still kills deer if the hunter does it right... so does a longbow in the right hands.

Varminterror said:

Travel on a roadway is a privilege, not a right. We are required to pay registration/taxes to be allowed to travel on publicly funded roadways. A person on a bicycle, in most states, does NOT have the privilege to travel on roadways equally to a motor vehicle, which HAS paid for the privilege. For example, bicycles in KS can ride no wider than 3ft from the white edge-line, and multiple riders cannot ride more than 2 cycles wide. Riders have the same burden of responsibility to act in accordance with the same laws as motor vehicles, but they also have additional restrictions. Just the same as a man on a lawnmower or a tractor or ATV has additional restrictions to allow them limited privileges for use on public roadways; limited in comparison to conventional motor vehicle traffic.

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Way off subject but you may be confused. There is a three foot passing law in Kansas which is common to many states that require a motorist to pass at a minimum of three feet clear of the cyclist. Bicycles are required to remain as far to the right as is practical. Bicycles are grandfathered into roadways accept for controlled access highways. The very first paved roads in the US were for bicycles and carriages:

8-1590. Riding on bicycles or mopeds; riding on roadways and bicycle paths.

Every person operating a bicycle or a moped upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, except under any of the following situations when: (1) Overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding In the same direction; (2) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or (3) reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving bicycles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or narrow width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand edge of the roadway.

Any person operating a bicycle or a moped upon a one-way highway with two or more marked traffic lanes may ride as near to the left side of the roadway as practicable.

Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast, except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.

SAFE PASSING LAW

8-1516 Pass to the left at a distance of not less than three (3) feet and do not drive to the right side of the roadway until the vehicle is safely clear of the overtaken bicycle. (This is in reference to a motor vehicle passing and over taking a bicycle and not a limitation as to where the bicycle may ride as a bicycle may use the full lane when needed as in the case of making a left turn or to avoid a hazard)

I think there's nothing wrong with liking old school classics, 308 and 30-06 are still being used for a reason. But at the same time, what's wrong with the latest calibers? They could just as good if not better than the old ones,