Best bullet for 5.56 self defense?

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MarshallDodge said:
You want something that will penetrate. If you have a situation where your target has heavy clothing, etc. then you don't want the bullet exploding when it hits the surface of the clothing.
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It all depends (and that three-word phrase could be the end of nearly any discussion). If you are planning to defend yourself at 200 yards on a windswept plain in Montana then your needs will be different than if you expect to defend yourself against multiple assailants in a sheet metal storage facility. For me, a more realistic situation revolves around a suburban environment.

Does your neighbour have the right to endanger, and possibly injure and kill, your family members because that neighbour is, legitimately or not, afraid of someone in her home? A person that that has nothing at all to do with you and your family. Or, do you think your neighbour should take all reasonable efforts, including choosing ammunition that has a lower probability (sorry, the risk never reaches zero) of harming your family, to prevent that harm?

Warning, veering off-topic, but still at least tangential:
This is part of the shame of the current false-safety movement. It makes it hard to discuss real safety without drawing ire from both sides.

Again, it all depends, there is no "best" because there is no single situation. However, we can start with a realistic assessment of the most likely defensive scenarios and building around that. If a realistic scenario does place you defending yourself at 200 yards on a windswept plain in Montana, or facing multiple assailants in a sheet metal storage facility, then you probably will make different decisions than I have.
 
I just use 55gr JSP. Sierra, Hornady, Dogtown, or whatever. I don’t worry about it too much, I’m pretty sure they’d do just fine.

I’ve found JSP to be more consistently accurate than FMJ, so that works out nice.

I don’t like having a bunch of different loads of the same cartridge laying around, if I can help it
 
peacebutready said:
I heard complaints regarding green tip at range beyond say 100 yards. Maybe it didn't hit the vitals.
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The only people Ive ever personally heard complain about performance at range were the guys that probably missed. Guys that could barely qualify on a flat range yet are sure they hit a guy running across a narrow street at 200+ meters.They blame their miss on the bullet not taking the guy out.

Between my time in Iraq, my buddies who stayed in, and my brother in law who was a Marine infantryman in Fallujah... we have a lot of experience with shooting guys with M16/M4 rifles. The vast majority of that with M855, though I did shoot a guy with M262 when I was a SDM. None of these guys have any complaints against M855.

That's not to say that M855 doesn't have it's issues. It definitely does and it's the reason why I buy M193 instead. But the issues are not as prevalent as the internet makes it out to be.
 
peacebutready said:
M193 doesn't penetrate in gel as much as good handgun hollow point rounds. M193 penetration seems more shallow than it should be when the target is close. A good soft point or monolithic bullet penetrates better and within the 18" they say is optimum.

Soft point and monolithic bullets are better for deer than fmj. That means they should be better for bad humans.
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When talkin' rifle rounds, and energy, penetration gets to be a little less of an issue.

A reasonable sized torso is ~10" thick.

The M193 will dump a half-ton-feet of energy into it/hit.




GR
 
Hasaf said:
It all depends (and that three-word phrase could be the end of nearly any discussion). If you are planning to defend yourself at 200 yards on a windswept plain in Montana then your needs will be different than if you expect to defend yourself against multiple assailants in a sheet metal storage facility. For me, a more realistic situation revolves around a suburban environment.

Does your neighbour have the right to endanger, and possibly injure and kill, your family members because that neighbour is, legitimately or not, afraid of someone in her home? A person that that has nothing at all to do with you and your family. Or, do you think your neighbour should take all reasonable efforts, including choosing ammunition that has a lower probability (sorry, the risk never reaches zero) of harming your family, to prevent that harm?

Warning, veering off-topic, but still at least tangential:
This is part of the shame of the current false-safety movement. It makes it hard to discuss real safety without drawing ire from both sides.

Again, it all depends, there is no "best" because there is no single situation. However, we can start with a realistic assessment of the most likely defensive scenarios and building around that. If a realistic scenario does place you defending yourself at 200 yards on a windswept plain in Montana, or facing multiple assailants in a sheet metal storage facility, then you probably will make different decisions than I have.
Click to expand...
Because neighbors getting hit with bullets from neighbors defending their homes is a big problem in this country?

Purchase what you think is best for you. If you can show me some examples of experts recommending varmint bullets for defense use, then you could sway me to your side :)
 
David Hoback said:
...My father tells me the story how he was actually among the last troops to trade their M14s for M16s. The problems(which are blown FAR out of proportion), were remedied by the time my Dad received his. Although he, like everyone else, was skeptical in the beginning. He loved his M14. But he tells that every bit of doubt left after their first fire fight using their new M16s. My Dad says that not only did his M16 function flawlessly, but these new tiny-little “5.56“ rounds WORKED! A center mass hit STOPPED an attacker immediately! He has also told me that cleaning usually consisted of separating upper & lower, pulling the BCG and dunking the components in a barrel of kerosene. Followed by wiping it dry. He can’t remember a single other Marine complaining about the weapon...Period...
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Combat ranges were close, so the m193 fragmented when hit. The enemy were much smaller than Americans as well.

Did his first M16 have the forward assist? I wonder how often the forward assist worked when operated after the rifle failed to fire from not going into battery.
 
MarshallDodge said:
Because neighbors getting hit with bullets from neighbors defending their homes is a big problem in this country?

Purchase what you think is best for you. If you can show me some examples of experts recommending varmint bullets for defense use, then you could sway me to your side :)
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Maybe..My brother in law's wife found a spent 556 bullet in her kitchen cabinet...traced the holes to where it entered their house. Nearest neighbor is about 1/2 mile away..LE kinda found the trajectory but didn't find the 'shooter'...

BUT, yup, buy what works best for what you envision you 'need' it for but high velocity rounds like some 556 DO easily go through the stuff most homes are made of.
 
FL-NC said:
I have seen varied results with single hits to the vitals out to the 300-350 meter distance, not just with green tip. These results varied from "rag doll" to the guy dropping and flopping around for a while. The only constants I personally saw under these conditions:1- A good hit to the vitals at these longer distances (100- 350-ish) was either immediately fatal, or very quickly took the enemy out of the fight, in the sense that he was more concerned with the leakage, onset of shock, difficulty breathing, etc. than returning fire at us (where we were a respectable distance away) with his AK, PKM, RPG, or whatever he happened to have. I also never saw anyone take a solid hit to the vitals and "shake it off" or "just keep coming like nothing happened". 2- a hit somewhere other than the vitals with anything is likely going to be crap. I ran past a man with his leg hanging on by a strip of skin (essentially amputated) by a 7.62 round from a M240 MG trying to escape by crawling away, and doing a pretty good job of it. Of course, adults in these countries typically have the muscle mass of a small child in the US, but that's not the point- his leg was still coming off. If he was capable of doing that, then he was capable of firing his AK (which he had abandoned down the block where he was hit). The reason he didn't do it was that he CHOSE not to. I also saw one that got hit in the butt cheek by a 5.56 that exited out of the front through his intestines continue to fight for a while. As with all things, shot placement is king.
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That pretty much mirrors my brother's statements on the 556. He did two tours as a Marine in Iraq.
He said a Benelli was unbeatable when kicking doors.
It's been 12 years and he still is very cryptic about it.
I have nothing but respect for anyone that went there. Even a cook over there still faced death from mortars etc.
 
Bfh_auto said:
That pretty much mirrors my brother's statements on the 556. He did two tours as a Marine in Iraq.
He said a Benelli was unbeatable when kicking doors.
It's been 12 years and he still is very cryptic about it.
I have nothing but respect for anyone that went there. Even a cook over there still faced death from mortars etc.
Click to expand...
Yep, the Marines love their shotguns, bless their hearts.
 
Bfh_auto said:
That pretty much mirrors my brother's statements on the 556. He did two tours as a Marine in Iraq.
He said a Benelli was unbeatable when kicking doors.
It's been 12 years and he still is very cryptic about it.
I have nothing but respect for anyone that went there. Even a cook over there still faced death from mortars etc.
Click to expand...

FL-NC said:
Yep, the Marines love their shotguns, bless their hearts.
Click to expand...

Bfh_auto said:
It's called use the right tools for the job;)
Click to expand...

I used both the M1014 and M16/M4's for door kicking before I became a DM and I'd pick the M4 over the M1014 any day of the week.
 
peacebutready said:
M193 doesn't penetrate in gel as much as good handgun hollow point rounds. M193 penetration seems more shallow than it should be when the target is close. A good soft point or monolithic bullet penetrates better and within the 18" they say is optimum.

Soft point and monolithic bullets are better for deer than fmj. That means they should be better for bad humans.
Click to expand...

18" is optimum for LEO use. For SD/HD use, about 14" is optimal, IMO- one of just many reasons why 5.56x45mm is superior to 00 buck for home defense. You are also making an assumption about several different things, including the desirability of a blood trail (hunting) over the desirability of not overpenetrating your target and increased danger to non-involved or friendly people in the area. NOT the same thing.

If confronted by a threat, I want to put it down or stop it in the shortest time possible. I don't care if it's easy to track, and I really don't care if the threat is dead or not- I just want it stopped. When hunting non-dangerous big game, I want a clean kill and a good blood trail if the prey doesn't drop in his or her tracks. Then I can hang out for another 30 minutes before I go find my kill. SD rounds MUST penetrate enough to damage or destroy major organs or bones, but the necessity for that big exit wound is gone.

John
 
There are many different, and very good rounds out there that could serve well as a choice in a "defensive" round for the 5.56 AR. Gold Dots, Hornady TAP, a bonded SP, a 77 gr OTM... the list goes on. I have the 75 gr Hornady TAP, (in limited quantity) and a good number of the IMI 77 gr OTM (my preferred round)

That said, guess what the bulk of my stash is?

Yup... 193. Yes, mostly because it's inexpensive, but also because it's more effective than a lot of people give it credit for. Especially at "self defense" distances. Remember that when we're talking "self defense" we're talking close range... not 400 yds. At close range, a round of 193 almost always will fragment explosively within a target, causing massive damage. It's like a baby hand grenade that goes off INSIDE the target. Plus you still get the big temporary cavity that does a lot of disruptive damage to organs. It makes a fine self defense round due to it's high speed, and that characteristic. It will even fragment well out of a 10.5" SBR... as long as we're talking short defensive ranges, and not like 200 yds... Most of the other so called "better" rounds that people tend to gravitate towards are for longer ranges, or for punching through barriers. If you need that, fine, but if all you need to do is stop a bad guy at social distance... 193 will more than suffice.

(Providing he's not wearing serious body armor, and you can hit what you shoot at)


Of course, if you CAN hit what you shoot at... there's ways around that body armor...
 
I have a handgun and shotgun in my bedroom, AR-15 is in my safe but it is loaded. I use Winchester 64 grain Power-Points in the AR for hunting and figured they would be good for HD, though in reality I haven’t put much thought into it.
 
For me I like a varmint type bullet. The one I currently load is a 60gr Hornady SP. I like a bullet that comes apart at impact. Definitely don't want a FMJ that could pass through after impact.
 
I tend to go with heavy-for-caliber ammo for almost all my firearms. So generally in 5.56 that means I go with the 77gr OTMs. I also have the heaviest GMX rounds from Hornady although I don't know if they'd work better or worse. Of course, it probably doesn't help knowing what I chose because 1) I've never shot anyone with it to see if I made the right call and 2) your circumstances might be different. My thought process is similar to others stated before- even a suboptimal loading in a rifle is generally better than a great round from a sidearm. If all I had was Green Tip or M193 then I wouldn't fret much so long as I had at least 30 rounds of it in the gun.
 
Because they are a poor island nation, the Philippine Islands had to find a way for their Marine Corp forces to come up with a decent sniper rifle system without breaking the bank. They checked out everything that they had in their armories and finally decided to make use of upgraded M-16 rifles. Their very first sniper M-16 rifles shot 62 grain bullets, had 20 inch barrels and used Tasco 3 by 9 variable scopes. After fielding these rifles, scopes and ammo they tested them and got very good results for both long distance shooting needs and close range encounters as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Scout_Sniper_Rifle

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Marine_Scout_Sniper_Rifle

Since the introduction of their first .223/5.56 sniper rifles and 62 grain bullets, the Philippine Islands' Marines have continued to use this caliber for their sniper rifle system with very good results. I'm not sure exactly what kind of 62 grain ammo that they use but I'm sure that you can find out with a little research or directly asking them for the information.
 
Just for referencing . Nosler 77 grain OTM (BTHP) with 22.4 Varget 2.245 COAL Federal small rifle primers Magtec cases. Out of a 16 “ AR 5.56 chamber 2384 FPS .100 yards 1:7 twist
 
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I am relatively new to the AR world and bought 62 grain Federal XM556SBCT3 for my SD rifle, which is a Geissele Super Duty with a 16" barrel. I have only seen the round mentioned in passing a couple of times in archived posts, but what do you more experienced guys think about that round?
 
X62503 said:
I am relatively new to the AR world and bought 62 grain Federal XM556SBCT3 for my SD rifle, which is a Geissele Super Duty with a 16" barrel. I have only seen the round mentioned in passing a couple of times in archived posts, but what do you more experienced guys think about that round?
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It's good stuff. I have some that was given to me for assisting with a Homeland Security training. They let me shoot their carbine with a fun switch when we were done :cool:

It's a bonded bullet so it works well against intermediate barriers.
 
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