Montana's Funky Restaurant Carry Laws - Can Someone Explain

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Evergreen

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https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0450/chapter_0080/part_0030/section_0280/0450-0080-0030-0280.html

I have been reading that the Montana Legislature passed a bill allowing people to conceal carry in restaurants where alcohol is served (most likely if they are not drinking) back in 2017. I know Montana is a very pro-gun state overall with a 2A friendly Attorney General and a 2A friendly State Legislature, but the Governor who I heard lied his way into office saying he was supportive of gun rights has shown his true colors and has turned out to be one of most anti-gun politicians in America in an overall pro gun state. I am not sure if he vetoed that legislation or if somehow it managed to pass with a majority vote of some sort. I am having trouble finding this. Reading the latest legal codes from Montana State Gov website I cannot see how the law changed except with mention of Title 16 .. Does that mean bar conceal carry is forbidden , but restaurants that serve alcohol (not as majority of income) is now legal in Montana?

I am hoping the current Governor gets voted out and Montana can return to being that refuge of freedom it was back in the day. I am most likely leaving Tennessee and looking for a new state to go to while I try to get back on my feet and survive this Pandemic. I am currently thinking of going to Ohio, but some part of me does miss being out West and the big moutnains . I grew up in Oregon and lived all over The Pacific NOrthwest (OR, WA, ID) and have always somewhat dreamed about Montana.

I do remember their laws were always a little strange. Like you can open carry your gun into a bar but not conceal carry it and no carrying in restaurants that serve alcohol. I know some of Montana's laws do go back to the Wild West days. A little strange for some to understand, but hoping they can become more loose to be on par with neighboring Idaho and Wyoming.

I like Montana as a state a lot. From the way the laws are spelled out it almost is confusing if even a coffeeshop, diner or even supermarket allows alcohol drinking are you breaking the law? I know Montana's alcohol laws are probably stricter than Oregon or Idaho's which actually allow beer consumption even in supermarkets. Not sure if Montana's laws have changed there either. It's been about 8 years or so since i been there.
 
Seems pretty clear to me. "A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon in a prohibited place if the person purposely or knowingly carries a concealed weapon in a room in which alcoholic beverages are sold, dispensed, and consumed under a license issued under Title 16 for the sale of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises". Are you asking about the details of Title 16? https://www.leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0160/chapters_index.html
 
Montana law allows people to carry concealed weapons if he or she has a valid Montana or out-of-state permit to do so.

No weapons, concealed or otherwise, are allowed in school buildings in Montana.

Even with a concealed weapons permit, you may not carry a concealed weapon in the following places:

  • buildings owned or leased by the federal, state or local government
  • financial institutions
  • any place where alcoholic beverages are sold, dispensed and consumed
from https://dojmt.gov/enforcement/concealed-weapons/\

In MT you can open carry in places which sell alcohol, subject to the owners property rights. One consideration is that a firearm is considered concealed under MT law if it is "fully or partially concealed by clothing". Guns in IWB holsters are concealed even if the grip is showing. Still under debate is whether a "full flap" holster is "an article of clothing, or considered the same as a purse (not an article of clothing).
 
So it's illegal to carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol, even if you are not consuming alcohol but just eating dinner? I don't think that set works in PA, but I'm not a lawyer.
 
Montana isn't quite as gun-friendly as everyone seems to think. True, it's not bad but in addition to CCW being illegal in bars and liquor stores it's also illegal in banks for some weird reason. It takes a long time to get a permit and you have to jump through a lot of hoops despite being a "shall issue" state on paper. I was born in South Dakota and the process is a lot easier there, and cheaper, too.
 
So it's illegal to carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol, even if you are not consuming alcohol but just eating dinner? I don't think that set works in PA, but I'm not a lawyer.
To stay on topic ( big brother is watching) :uhoh: you don’t live here either, how many people on this thread complaining about our gun laws actually live in Montana?
 
973B2852-F59E-4A40-987C-D1CF8FC2D406.jpeg In Montana you can protect not only yourself but you can protect your property and livestock as well , the state has the burden of proof.
Last I checked Dualing is still legal but if you kill or permanently disable your counterpart you are responsible for his family and debt so make sure his wife is a good cook.
A lady can carry in her purse concealed without a permit because it’s not on her person.
 
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Let no one be under the impression that one may use deadly force to protect property in Montana.
 
Quite right’
Certainly don’t want to shoot someone for petting your horse, I don’t however recommend trying to steal one either.
I also consider the book above a very entertaining read.
J
Addendum- I chat about this stuff almost daily with a retired Montana Trooper. Interesting guy for sure....
 
... In Montana you can protect not only yourself but you can protect your property....

Not exactly. One cannot use deadly force just to protect property"

  • Mt Code 45-3-104 (emphasis added). 
    Use of force in defense of other property. A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property, other than an occupied structure, or personal property lawfully in the person's possession or in the possession of another who is a member of the person's immediate family or household or of a person whose property the person has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

  • Mt Code 45-3-101: 
    Definitions. ...

    (2) "Forcible felony" means any felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

...the state has the burden of proof....

Not exactly.

See:

  • Mt. Code 45-3-11:
    Affirmative defense. A defense of justifiable use of force based on the provisions of this part is an affirmative defense.

  • Mt Code 46-16-131 (emphasis added): 
    Justifiable use of force -- burden of proof. In a criminal trial, when the defendant has offered evidence of justifiable use of force, the state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant's actions were not justified.

  • State v. Daniels, 265 P.3d 623, 362 Mont. 426, 2011 MT 278 (Mont. 2011), at 629 (emphasis added):
    ...while the Legislature provided that the burden of proof can ultimately be shifted to the State, it placed the initial burden of evidence production upon the defendant. Under § 46–16–131, MCA (2009), the defendant has the initial burden to “offer[ ] evidence of justifiable use of force” before the burden of proof is shifted to the State. If the defendant offers no evidence, then he fails to satisfy his initial burden and the defense fails. See § 26–1–401, MCA (“The initial burden of producing evidence as to a particular fact is on the party who would be defeated if no evidence were given on either side. Thereafter, the burden of producing evidence is on the party who would suffer a finding against him in the absence of further...

  • State v. Erickson, 2014 MT 304, 377 Mont. 84, 338 P.3d 598 (Mont. 2014), at 92:
    ...
    Justifiable use of force is still an affirmative defense—which we have defined as one that admits the doing of the act charged, but seeks to justify, excuse, or mitigate it—and the initial burden of evidence production is still on the defendant.....

So the burden to prove lack of justified use of force doesn't fall to the prosecution unless/until the defendant has produced evidence supporting his claim of justification.

...I chat about this stuff almost daily with a retired Montana Trooper....

If you really want to learn about the law you'd do better to chat with a lawyer.
 
So you cannot concealed carry where alcohol is sold or dispensed. Doesn't that mean you cannot comcealed carry in a grocery store? No one has mentioned that in this discussion so far.
 
So you cannot concealed carry where alcohol is sold or dispensed. Doesn't that mean you cannot comcealed carry in a grocery store? No one has mentioned that in this discussion so far.

You'd have had the answer to your question if you had followed the link in the OP and read the Montana statute found at that link, Mt. Code 45-8-328 (emphasis added):
Carrying concealed weapon in prohibited place -- penalty. (1) Except for legislative security officers authorized to carry a concealed weapon in the state capitol as provided in 45-8-317(1)(k), a person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon in a prohibited place if the person purposely or knowingly carries a concealed weapon in:

(a) ...

(b) ...
...
(c) a room in which alcoholic beverages are sold, dispensed, and consumed under a license issued under Title 16 for the sale of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises......

Grocery stores and liquor stores don't sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
 
(c) a room in which alcoholic beverages are sold, dispensed, and consumed under a license issued under Title 16 for the sale of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises

So if a grocery store sells beer for consumption on premises, is the entire store a room where CC is banned?
 
I appreciate the discussion going on .. Sorry, been away from the forum a bit.. Dang it, it appears all my worst fears about CCW laws in Montana are true.. And, yeah, having a law where it is illegal to exercise your 2nd Amendment rights because other people around you are drinking could be a deal breaker as far as a state I would want to live in. And, as others point out and I explained in my original post, a law that bans you from any premise if people consume alcohol could be very tricky and dangerous. For example, many grocery stores now do wine tastings like Trader Joes or even many Supermarkets like IGAs, etc. Let's say someone in the grocery store saw the printing of your gun, called the police (In a place like Missoula or Bozeman certainly could happen) and the officers found out the store had a permit to allow people to consume alcohol (such as wine tastings), you would then be arrested and have a pretty serious weapons related criminal charge against you for doing what many other gun owners do all around the country (carry while shopping). Many stores let you buy beer and drink it there. I know Kroger, Whole Foods and other grocery stores actually let you purchase the beer , they have to open it for you though. They have the same type of license that restaurants would have for alcoholic consumption.

States that ban carrying a gun into a bank also leave a bad taste in my mouth and even makes me fearful of banking in such states. This law obviously is most beneficial to the criminal who doesn't care about the rule. The one deterrent armed robbers would have is not knowing who is armed. Knowing that people are forcefully disarmed and carrying out cash means you are much more a target. Not that I think Montana would have issues with armed robberies, but we are going through desperate times right now and more than ever I would want to carry a gun with me if I am carrying a big wad of cash or other valuables to a safety deposit box in and out of bank. Also, this goes well beyond banks, it says any place that handles credit, loans or cash dispensing, so I would think even Checks Cashed places too? The law is actually a little vague there too,

(b) a bank, credit union, savings and loan institution, or similar institution
That "similar" institution clause does make me scratch my head a little.

It's kind of sad Montana has such strict gun laws. I love the beauty of the state and think many of the people are freedom minded, but I know with a strange mixture of outdated Wild West era laws as well as big influx of people into the bigger towns from more anti-gun states that they do have some restrictions on your 2A rights that even some more liberal states don't have (yet , at least).

The anti-gun Governor of Montana must have vetoed the vote of the state legislature, because I did read in 2017 they voted to overhaul the laws that made it illegal to carry where there is alcohol consumption. Hopefully Montana can get rid of this rogue anti-gun Governor as I do feel the state as a whole wants to go on the right track for gun rights. The fact that Governor Bullock ran as a pro-gun Blue Dog Democrat candidate then totally made a 180 after he went for his Presidential run makes me think he is basically running his own agenda that basically goes against what most Montanans want.
 
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I appreciate the discussion going on .. Sorry, been away from the forum a bit.. Dang it, it appears all my worst fears about CCW laws in Montana are true.. And, yeah, having a law where it is illegal to exercise your 2nd Amendment rights because other people around you are drinking could be a deal breaker as far as a state I would want to live in. And, as others point out and I explained in my original post, a law that bans you from any premise if people consume alcohol could be very tricky and dangerous. For example, many grocery stores now do wine tastings like Trader Joes or even many Supermarkets like IGAs, etc. Let's say someone in the grocery store saw the printing of your gun, called the police (In a place like Missoula or Bozeman certainly could happen) and the officers found out the store had a permit to allow people to consume alcohol (such as wine tastings), you would then be arrested and have a pretty serious weapons related criminal charge against you for doing what many other gun owners do all around the country (carry while shopping). Many stores let you buy beer and drink it there. I know Kroger, Whole Foods and other grocery stores actually let you purchase the beer , they have to open it for you though. They have the same type of license that restaurants would have for alcoholic consumption.

States that ban carrying a gun into a bank also leave a bad taste in my mouth and even makes me fearful of banking in such states. This law obviously is most beneficial to the criminal who doesn't care about the rule. The one deterrent armed robbers would have is not knowing who is armed. Knowing that people are forcefully disarmed and carrying out cash means you are much more a target. Not that I think Montana would have issues with armed robberies, but we are going through desperate times right now and more than ever I would want to carry a gun with me if I am carrying a big wad of cash or other valuables to a safety deposit box in and out of bank. Also, this goes well beyond banks, it says any place that handles credit, loans or cash dispensing, so I would think even Checks Cashed places too? The law is actually a little vague there too,


That "similar" institution clause does make me scratch my head a little.

It's kind of sad Montana has such strict gun laws. I love the beauty of the state and think many of the people are freedom minded, but I know with a strange mixture of outdated Wild West era laws as well as big influx of people into the bigger towns from more anti-gun states that they do have some restrictions on your 2A rights that even some more liberal states don't have (yet , at least).

The anti-gun Governor of Montana must have vetoed the vote of the state legislature, because I did read in 2017 they voted to overhaul the laws that made it illegal to carry where there is alcohol consumption. Hopefully Montana can get rid of this rogue anti-gun Governor as I do feel the state as a whole wants to go on the right track for gun rights. The fact that Governor Bullock ran as a pro-gun Blue Dog Democrat candidate then totally made a 180 after he went for his Presidential run makes me think he is basically running his own agenda that basically goes against what most Montanans want.
What part of Montana are you living in?
 
What part of Montana are you living in?

I don't live in Montana, but have thought about living there for years. Well, I'm in Tennessee and I was looking at possibly a move back out West and considering Montana. I would look at living around Billings, Helena, Livingston or Kalispell area if I was to live there. I love the mountains in Western Montana more than just about any other place in continental US. I spent time in Whitefish, Darby and Hamilton, as well hiked throughout Glacier NP. I've also driven through Libby and Cabinet mountains (amazing untouched wilderness area) spending a couple days in Clark Fork. About 2 weeks total.
 
To stay on topic ( big brother is watching) :uhoh: you don’t live here either, how many people on this thread complaining about our gun laws actually live in Montana?
Most people in this thread are talking or asking about what the Montana gun laws are, not necessarily complaining about them. The law is the law. Really doesn't make much difference whether a person discussing the laws of a given state lives in that state or not. Now, if we're discussing enforcement of those laws and whether or not anyone pays attention to them, then local knowledge becomes relevant. Not really supposed to discuss that sort of thing in the legal section though.
 
Dang it, it appears all my worst fears about CCW laws in Montana are true.. And, yeah, having a law where it is illegal to exercise your 2nd Amendment rights because other people around you are drinking could be a deal breaker as far as a state I would want to live in.

states that ban carrying a gun into a bank also leave a bad taste in my mouth

You do understand that the law's restrictions are for concealed carry only, right. Open carry in banks, or bars, is fine if the owner doesn't mind.

Yes,Gov Bullock has vetoed several pro-gun bills that went to his desk. In the case of concealed carry in establishments which allow on premises consumption, some Dems killed it in committee. It will be back. What we have now is a "coat" law (you must take your coat off when going into the business so the firearm is not concealed).
 
...if we're discussing enforcement of those laws and whether or not anyone pays attention to them, then local knowledge becomes relevant. Not really supposed to discuss that sort of thing in the legal section though.

One reason we don't discuss that sort of thing here much is that it really doesn't mean anything, "Local attitude" can be changeable and is also unreliable.
 
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