Inconsequential increments, the fallacy of over analyzing a hunting round.

But the principle role of an internet gun forum is to (good naturedly, one hopes) argue the number of angels that will fit in the head of a pin, or the "inconsequential increments" of which you and the late, great Mr Cooper wrote. Othwrwise, your statement above pretty much sums everything up and negates further banter...

Ya, spot on.......
get a rifle and if it’s accurate, use constant ammo, then get to know it well.

Thanks, H&H, good write up.

I agree. More time at the range practicing the basics like a shooter and less time pouring over data like an accountant.

I agree with everything you said except

H&Hhunter said:

. . .We are becoming gadget geeks. . .

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(emphasis added).

Gadget geeks have always been, and most progress is made in steps too small to matter individually. Yet here we are, hunting elk with 6.5PRC rifles wearing Gore-Tex instead of with Kentucky rifles wearing beaverskins. Just one inconsequential step at a time. . .

On one hand I agree with you.

Pretty much all cartridges work and most hunters would be better off using a moderate round they can shoot well. I settled on 308 for my go-to round about a dozen years ago. When I took an honest look at it's capabilities, and my skills the choice was easy. It'll kill anything I'll hunt, and at ranges farther than I have the skills to shoot.

On the other hand I actually see more hunters moving in that direction than in the past.

The 1st 100 years after the invention of smokeless powder was a race to see who could develop the fastest cartridge in each caliber. Today more moderate cartridges like the 6.5 CM, 7-08, and 308 are outselling the magnums. Shooters/hunters are taking advantage of cheaper to shoot, lighter recoiling rounds to get in a lot more trigger time than ever before. And they are becoming better shots than ever before.

Bullets with better BC's have replaced the quest for faster and faster muzzle velocity. A 30-06 loaded with a modern 180 gr bullet will impact faster at only 75 yards than a 300 H&H magnum with the traditional 180 gr RN used in 1925. My 308 with modern bullets exceeds 1925 era 300 H&H loads beyond 175 yards. That didn't happen over night. It was done by a series of small incremental improvements built on top of other small incremental improvements.

As to the gadgets and technology, hunters are changing. The number of hunters nationally is down dramatically over what it was 30-40 years ago. But the number of shooters has increased dramatically over 30-40 years ago. Today's younger shooters are very likely not hunters. And the ones who do still hunt find target shooting to be the top priority.

They choose their guns, cartridges, and gear with that in mind. And as they spend time shooting them at targets those are the guns and gear they develop confidence in. It is natural that they would choose those them when they do hunt. And I'm OK with that. I'm not going to discourage a young hunter because his gear is different than mine.

OP has good points but they are not mutually exclusive. You can be both a gadget-geek/techno-nerd and a rifleman at the same time. In fact some of the best shooters are both. If you start with solid shooting skills and couple that with the exceptionally capable gear you can create some impressive performance.

I do think the rifleman skills are more critical than the gadgets as a good shooter can do a lot with a marginal rifle but no amount of money spent on gadgets can make a poor rifleman perform under pressure.

Mine is an old Rem 700 that kills deer! I need nothing else. I don't need to put holes in paper in the same hole etc... I need a .30 caliber bullet that hits vitals. My rifle and bullet (core lokt) does the trick. I will not spend more money or time on anything else.

Same basic complaint and solution, just different details. Nothing wrong with seeking to find something better. Some people need all the help they can get. A 6 moa shooter with a 0.5 moa gun/caliber/load/bullet gives a potential 7 moa on target. That is much better than a 6 moa shooter with a 3 moa setup yielding a potential 12 moa on target. No doubt better to be a 1 or 2 moa shooter, but the reality is, most won't put in the time.

In another circumstance, we would call this white lab coat syndrome, where folks develop a product and all the details to the nth degree and get confused when it doesn't do right in the field because they didn't spend any time outside of the lab.

If I was to guess, the most flagrant violators of the OP's position are newbies, impatient perfectionists, and those people who just can't seem to leave well enough alone.

H&Hhunter said:

I can not take credit for “preoccupation with inconsequential increments”. That truism belongs to the late great Jeff Cooper. And I am seeing a rash of it in today’s hunters. We are becoming gadget geeks and in the field techno nerds. What we lack in skill we attempt to make up for with purchasing power.

Shootability Is far more important than just about anything else in a hunting rifle. That extra 200 FPS, that extra .059 of BC are never going to make up for a rifle that you don’t shoot well. A lack of rifle craft can’t be cured with longer barrels, slippery bullets, carbon wraps or gigantic scopes. Pick an adequate caliber, shoot a decent bullet and learn your rifle inside and out. Spend most of your time shooting from field positions, learn to throw the bolt reflexively, learn to reload without looking. Practice off hand, practice snap shooting, shooting seated, finding and utilizing in the field rests and odd shooting positions. One day out in the wild shooting rocks at various distances from field positions is worth a year of shooting off of a solid bench rest at the range.

A hot rod 7MM or a super slippery 6.5 is totally wasted on the hunter who hasn’t put in the quality trigger time. Quit worrying about whether one round carries a couple of hundred more Ft Lbs of energy or has 3” less drop at 400 yards. Pick an adequate caliber and bullet combo And rifle that fits and carries well, then hunt to within the limitations of your abilities. There are very few hunters who can effectively and consistently shoot to the limits and capabilities of most modern centerfire rifle rounds. Modern being from about 1892 with the advent of the 7x57. It is extremely rare to find a hunter who is limited by the capability of his chosen round rather than his ability as a marksmen.

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Bingo!

Wait.....so you’re saying....practice makes perfect? Like the best way to do something well is to, like, practice doing it? Nah. That can’t be right....

I remember when you put on a red plaid jacket, grabbed the 30-30 and a handful of shells and hit the woods. Now you have the newest whizbang rifle, an ATV, or the latest electric bike, camo, climbing tree stands, shooting sticks or bi-pod, binoculars and possibly a spotting scope. Then there is the timed feeder, corn, popup blinds and food plot equipment. I miss the good ole days.

Be both! The guy who knows the mot incremental and infinitesimally small details of a round can put that round to use most effectively... at least in theory. The guy who has the best marksmanship ability should be able to put the shot in proper location most effectively... at least in theory. The guy with the highest priced most technologically advanced gizmo laden rifle should be able to make shots that others never could... at least in theory. So if you combine a guy who has great gear, knows his gear, and can make a shot when it counts, you have the perfect stack of ability to do incredible things. Those guys are typically the ones who make it to the olympics or the world competitions, but why should we not strive to be like them? If we know our trajectory well then we can figure out that at 400 yards we need to aim 4” high to make a perfect shot, but also realize that 3” is the max without hitting THAT tree limb while also bucking a 12 mph crosswind, so now we suddenly know that we are aiming 6 inches left and 2.5 inches over the target and sending that round into the bottom of that elks heart instead of center punching it. Sure we can all lob bullets in haphazardly with a 22 at the range and walk the shot in to get hits, but when we truly know our gear and can do it from cold bore then we are doing something. We can be that guy, it just takes time in all areas. Study your data. Know your gear. Practice using your gear. Practice putting your gear through it’s paces with real world type shooting.

The perils of not putting enough time shooting from field positions quickly show themselves while hunting. When I made the transition from plinking off the bench to hunting, my plan was to practice off hand shooting thinking other shooting positions would be easy. Not so for me. Shooting from kneeling, sitting, prone backpack, monopod and bipod also require practice. Different muscles are used in different positions and timing the trigger break is different given the different levels of wobble.

Ever notice how when some folks wound and loose a deer, it's gotta be because the bullet failed? Even tho they never recovered the animal and never did an autopsy? The #1 joke at the local archery shop is about those folks that wound and loose a deer and then buy a new bow before the next season, cause it had to be the bow's fault they lost that deer. They know they double lunged it, but still it quit bleeding altogether after 100 yards. Bow must be gettin' weak.

If ones choice of bullets, or caliber, or platform, or any other gadget that trips their trigger gives them more confidence and motivates them to get out in the woods and hunt, it can't be a bad thing can it? The issue in MHO, is when they become the primary reason why a hunter is or is not successful, instead of Woodsmanship, knowledge of your game and weapon skill.

H&Hhunter said:

..., What we lack in skill we attempt to make up for with purchasing power...., Shootability Is far more important than just about anything else in a hunting rifle. ..., Pick an adequate caliber, shoot a decent bullet and learn your rifle inside and out. Spend most of your time shooting from field positions..., One day out in the wild shooting rocks at various distances from field positions is worth a year of shooting off of a solid bench rest at the range...., Pick an adequate caliber and bullet combo and rifle that fits and carries well, then hunt to within the limitations of your abilities. ...

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"The Magic is in the Wizard; not in the wand." Gunsmith James Funk of North Carolina in response to a question about new gadgets for handguns, in 1988

This is not a new phenomenon for firearms of any type. Here is a quote about hunting with rifles from before WW1...,

"It is practice, intelligent varied practice, that makes a marksman. Without it, the keenest eye and steadiest nerve are of no avail. ...,
..., There is no room here to discuss the topic of hunting rifles. Get the best that you can, of course; but do not worship it. Bear in mind that, whatever its trajectory and smashing quality, it is only a gun, and can kill nothing that you miss with it." Horace Kephart Camping and Woodcraft 1906

So even back then such a debate existed, especially since it was the beginning of the smokeless cartridge in the United States, with the .30-30 Winchester being a mere 11 years old when Camping and Woodcraft was first published.

LD

jmr40 said:

As to the gadgets and technology, hunters are changing. The number of hunters nationally is down dramatically over what it was 30-40 years ago. But the number of shooters has increased dramatically over 30-40 years ago. Today's younger shooters are very likely not hunters. And the ones who do still hunt find target shooting to be the top priority.

They choose their guns, cartridges, and gear with that in mind. And as they spend time shooting them at targets those are the guns and gear they develop confidence in. It is natural that they would choose those them when they do hunt. And I'm OK with that. I'm not going to discourage a young hunter because his gear is different than mine.

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^^^^

This IMHO sums up what we're seeing.

and the average deer hunter isn't even on a gun forum, doesn't practice, maybe checks his zero a couple weeks before the opener, and still manages to kill his/her deer for the most part.

For the average game animal shot in this country I agree with the OP 100% because as the last time I looked anywhere for stats the average distance was still well below 200 yds, certainly shorter than 300. Those distances are doable with your average off the shelf deer rifle firing factory ammo with a traditional "duplex" hunting scope in common deer calibers. The old adage of "hold on hair" pretty much holds true for the majority of shots taken.

High BCs, MIL reticles, exposed turrets, won't play a role, but there's no harm in having them unless you're at altitude dragging a 10lb target rifle around and you're not in good enough shape to do it.

The same kind of discussion takes place on defensive boards all the time skill/mindset VS equipment, and it's valid until you get the meet the guy that has all three.

My uncle said, get what of ammo is readily on the shelf, there is reason that it's there.

We don’t need the latest and greatest , this girl ( my Daughter) is an avid hunter and a crack shot who normally shoots a 300 Weatherby mag is pictured with Gramps old 30-06 at 200 yards

It would be hard to argue that the focus of hunting has changed from woodsmanship to equipment. People have much more disposable income now than in years gone by, and marketers are succeeding to convince us to spend some of it on gear. Change is inevitable, so we might as well accept it. Not many people tracking deer in the snow any more, mostly sitting in some sort of permanent blind or treestand.

H&H, good luck with that M71. My dad used to have one, and when he let me shoot that boomer when I was 10 or 11 it opened the door into manhood for me. Unfortunately, when he got older he had trouble seeing the open sights and sold it so he could get a scoped rifle. In his mind, a man should own 2 guns, a deer rifle and a shotgun. How times have changed. I've checked into getting one several times, but could never justify the money that they command. Its a classic for sure.

Laphroaig said:

It would be hard to argue that the focus of hunting has changed from woodsmanship to equipment. People have much more disposable income now than in years gone by, and marketers are succeeding to convince us to spend some of it on gear. Change is inevitable, so we might as well accept it. Not many people tracking deer in the snow any more, mostly sitting in some sort of permanent blind or treestand.

H&H, good luck with that M71. My dad used to have one, and when he let me shoot that boomer when I was 10 or 11 it opened the door into manhood for me. Unfortunately, when he got older he had trouble seeing the open sights and sold it so he could get a scoped rifle. In his mind, a man should own 2 guns, a deer rifle and a shotgun. How times have changed. I've checked into getting one several times, but could never justify the money that they command. Its a classic for sure.

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Agree, which is unfortunate because still hunting is my favorite way to hunt deer, I get bored chitless sitting in a stand, but it is effective. The cause might be that for the most part we're all dealing with smaller parcels. Some of the bigger places I hunt are only a couple hundred acres at best, unless I head out west to some of the large walk-in areas.