Defense of a Third Person

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This is from the latest of Andrew Branca's Cases of the Week blog posts.

A little guy who worked in a concrete factory started a fight with much, much bigger guy at work.

That was DUMB.

Things unfolded as might have been expected. The big guy got the better of the little guy and was beating the bejeesus out of him.

The little guy's brother, who had witnessed everything from the outset, grabbed something and went around behind the big guy and beaned him.

That might have been understandable, but it was a criminal act. Read on.

It was DUMB

The brother was arrested and charged.

He requested a bench trial, in which the judge acted as judge, interpreting the law, and as jury, judging the facts of the case.

The brother's defense was that he had used force in the defense of a third party.

That can be lawful ...

But the judge said that, because the defendant struck his victim from behind, the act was not lawful.

That was exceptionally DUMB.

The brother was convicted.

He appealed, arguing that the judge, in his role as judge, committed reversible error by ruling that a blow from behind was not lawful.

The appeals court agreed that the ruling had been incorrect.

BUT the appeals court properly ruled that, as the instigator of the confrontation, the little guy would not have been lawfully privileged to defend himself.

For that reason, the brother was not privileged to claim lawful justification in having come to the defense of the little guy.

That's pretty basic.

Finally, there was something that was not DUMB: the ruling of the trial court was upheld.

The ruling was handed down last week.

The brother received a thirty-day suspended sentence. (!)

None of this should have happened.

In many states, a person may lawfully use reasonable force to defend a third party, provided that he has an objective basis for reasonably believing that the third person would be privileged to use force in the defense of himself.

"She looked like an innocent victim" might not cut it at all, though it once worked for Geo. Patton. Things are not always as they appear.

In a few states, if that belief later proves erroneous, the goose of the person who came to the aid of the third party is cooked.

It is particularly imprudent to step into a confrontation unless you know what has already occurred.

Since that's a tall order, it is usually best to elect to defend only people whom you know.

For those who might be visualizing Dirty Harry stuff ("Smith, Wesson, and me"), "reasonable force" may involve shoving a person, grabbing an arm, or using pepper spray.

Under some circumstances, deadly force may be justified. That can include using an aluminum bat or something heavy.

Beyond criminal liability, there is also the risk of civil liability, where the defendant does not enjoy the benefit of a "beyond all reasonable doubt" requirement.

Let's be careful out there!

Going back to the concrete factory: one would hope that, had the beating appeared to have become life threatening, the trial court might have been more sympathetic to the defendant.

Would that have been more likely with a jury trial? I wonder.


As a retired cop,that had a great deal of trouble NOT taking action after retirement.

I think I speak from a position of authority & knowledge [ I think ? ].

Best expression that fits a attack your witnessing is " YOU DONT KNOW,WHAT YOU DONT KNOW ".

So unless your privy to all the ALL the knowledge to fully explain what your witnessing = Be a good witness,call 9/11 and then take video [ if possible ].

My only 'possible' exclusion to this RULE that I follow is -------- if the victim is an officer ,AND its as obvious as possible he is not wrong AND about to die.

Or suffer "serious physical injury" [ yes a legal expression ]..

Just my 00.02 cents
 
Police officers do not have the option of not intervening in DV cases. and understand well how the victim often sides with the attacker.

Civilians do have that option, and most cases they will be be well served to take advantage of it.

I completely understand that part of the discussion, I'm just blown away that the rape victim testified AGAINST the guy who tried to stop it.

Domestic violence, I get - but that wasn't how I read your original statement.
 
Be careful with the defense of third persons.

About 25 years ago an Oklahoma man drove upon a scene where a lady was being raped. The rapist jumped up, got into his car and attempted to run down the good guy, who shot and killed the perp. The prosecutor charged the Okie with murder or manslaughter, forget which. The rape victim testified against the good Samaritan in court. Man was found not guilty. Then the zealous prosecutor charged the man with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.
I must be missing something here. If the rapist was trying to run down the would-be good samaritan with his car, why wasn't it self-defense?
 
I'm sorry, I'm not following you. If A is trying to run B down with a car, isn't that attempted assault with a deadly weapon that entitles B to defend him/herself with deadly force?
If two people testify that the man had been trying to kill the man and that his driving had been in necessary lawful self defense.....

One may lawfully defend himself with deadly force iff the triers of fact have not reasonable doubt regarding whether...
  • he was not the initial aggressor in the critical incident, and he dis not provoke the conflict;
  • the amount of force used was proportional to the need;
  • the threat was imminent;
  • The action was reasonable; and
  • there was no legal duty to retreat.
Would the man in the car have met all of those conditions?

Did the man who claimed to have been intervening have met all of those conditions?
 
If two people testify that the man had been trying to kill the man and that his driving had been in necessary lawful self defense.....

One may lawfully defend himself with deadly force iff the triers of fact have not reasonable doubt regarding whether...
  • he was not the initial aggressor in the critical incident, and he dis not provoke the conflict;
  • the amount of force used was proportional to the need;
  • the threat was imminent;
  • The action was reasonable; and
  • there was no legal duty to retreat.
Would the man in the car have met all of those conditions?

Did the man who claimed to have been intervening have met all of those conditions?
I see. I guess it would depend on whether what the would-be good Samaritan first did to the rapist constituted deadly force thus justifying deadly force in response.
 
Would that have been more likely with a jury trial? I wonder.

No telling and the mitigating factors in the out come of a civil suit are not even in the OP, like regional location, race, etc...
 
I must be missing something here. If the rapist was trying to run down the would-be good samaritan with his car, why wasn't it self-defense?

i don't have any idea why the prosecutor charged the good guy. Maybe because the area around Tulsa, OK is like the area around Austin, Texas. It's a bastion of liberalism in another wise conservative state; they elect like minded prosecutors.

i followed the news reports from the incident until the good guy was found not guilty. The prosecutor then charged the man with carrying a concealed weapon; the prosecutor lost that one too. One report claimed the victim and her rapist had a previous relationship. Somewhere on a floppy disk i have the files. Problem is there are dozens of big floppys.
 
It is particularly imprudent to step into a confrontation unless you know what has already occurred.

Since that's a tall order, it is usually best to elect to defend only people whom you know.
Agree.

For those who might be visualizing Dirty Harry stuff ("Smith, Wesson, and me"), "reasonable force" may involve shoving a person, grabbing an arm, or using pepper spray.
Pepper spray, sure. The other stuff...

People my size do not typically do well "shoving" or "grabbing" anyone. 90% of America that would do me harm is bigger than me.

Beyond criminal liability, there is also the risk of civil liability, where the defendant does not enjoy the benefit of a "beyond all reasonable doubt" requirement.
Always a risk.



Good reminder post.
OP describes a terrible situation. Little dude was wrong... and dumb.

I didn't see any mention of the brother trying to de-escalate the situation or stop the big guy before applying deadly force (maybe I missed it). That probably should have been the step before application of force.


All that being said, sometimes you get put in a situation where no outcome is ideal, but one outcome (my people dying) is unacceptable.

There is just no way I'm standing by and letting someone kill any of my people.
 
Inserting yourself into a third person scenario is almost never a good idea.

Unless you know for certain who is who and what the conflict is about, your best bet is to be a good witness for the police.
 
One may lawfully defend a third party only under circumstances in which
  1. you have reason to believe that the third party would be lawfully privileged to defend himself, or
  2. in some states, the third party is actually legally so privileged.
NC is #2. From what I understand, what you reasonably believe about the innocence status of the perceived victim in NC is irrelevant; the actual criterion is whether the perceived victim actually would have a self-defense claim. An example was raised in my NC CCW class about a man beating a woman in the parking lot. In NC, if you start a fight, you cannot claim self-defense if it escalates to deadly force, unless you try to withdraw from it first. So if it turns out that the woman started a fight that then escalated, she could not claim self-defense unless she withdrew from the fight first, so *neither can you* if you shoot the guy beating her. So you have to know how it developed, or else call 911 and be a good witness. Though if the beater turns to attack *you* without being provoked by you, then it reverts to the regular rules for defense of yourself.
 
If they guy were beating her with a baseball bat and wasn't stopping, it would be awfully difficult to "be a good witness".

Being in a legal situation where your "correct" legal choice were to let someone be killed is a pretty crappy place to be.
 
If they guy were beating her with a baseball bat and wasn't stopping, it would be awfully difficult to "be a good witness".

Being in a legal situation where your "correct" legal choice were to let someone be killed is a pretty crappy place to be.

Sadly yes, it would be. If this happens, and you are armed, you can "try" to make sure bat guy sees you pointing a gun at him as you tell him next swing he makes he will be trying to hit a lead fast ball. Then if he turns on you with the bat, he is threatening you with a deadly weapon. If he looks at you and goes back to the woman? Well you could "probably" shoot. If you chose to shoot this can be a life changing choice. In many places the local DA "may" come after you. A LOT of the problem with this scenario is often this will be the result of a domestic of some sort. Talk to anyone who has been a Cop for a while and they will tell you why these are the most dangerous calls. Often the "victim" will side with the scum.
So even if the scum does not have a bat but, is just beating a person who is on the ground. Still easy to kill this way. Again, you chose to shoot? It can change your entire life. I wish it was not like this but this is the real world we all have to live in. As always if you shoot or even draw your weapon, when it's over LAWYER. Do not plead your case to the Police who show up. If you get involved, and you end up in legal "trouble" one thing that will NEVER make it better for you is to start talking.
 
I do agree defending a 3rd party stranger can be very risky without you knowing all the facts. Even defending a friend or family member can be the same way.

However there are certain instances where certain acts go over the line. Even if you dont truly know all the facts.

Example... A woman becomes very sexual with someone in a parking lot of your local club. However changes her mind and tells him to stop... You see him ripping her clothes off, forcing himself on her as she is screaming.....
What level of force is justified depends on the state that this event is happening. Rape is never consensual.

There are some other events where defending 3rd party is easily apparent. You walk in a bank or store getting robbed at gun point, Or any of the mass shootings.
 
Incidents such as that in your example have led to the conviction and incarceration of would-be heros.
 
Example... A woman becomes very sexual with someone in a parking lot of your local club. However changes her mind and tells him to stop... You see him ripping her clothes off, forcing himself on her as she is screaming.....
What level of force is justified depends on the state that this event is happening. Rape is never consensual.

It might change to consensual the minute you intervene. You can never tell what the "victim" is going to do when you jump in to save the day. Back in the day when we couldn't make an arrest for domestic battery without a complaint by the victim we had a fairly regular call to a residence where the couple was really going at it. They never called, the neighbors did when they got too loud. The "victim" finally told us she deliberately provoked him.....because the makeup sex was so good. There have been cases where the police have responded to a "rape" only to find that it was a couple acting out a fantasy. My point here is that you can't know what's really happening when you decide to intervene.

Until you've had the victim who moments before was holding a towel against he bloody scalp and screaming; "I want the SOB arrested get him out of here!" jump on your back or strike you when you hooked "the SOB" up to take him to jail you can't begin to understand the dynamics involved and why intervening when you don't have to is one of the worst decisions you can make.
 
I retracted my statement, as I am not able to verify it’s authenticity at this time.
 
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...I have also seen someone arrested and convicted for simply watching it happen in the parking lot and did nothing. Convicted of being an accomplice in the rape, even though the rapist and the onlooker did not know each other....

We need some verifiable, credible evidence for this. In general, an uninvolved stranger has no duty to intervene and cannot be held liable, civilly or criminally, for a failure to do so.

You're the one making the claim, so it's your burden to support the claim with verifiable, credible evidence. If you won't or can't, it would be reasonable for us to dismiss your statement as untrue.
 
We need some verifiable, credible evidence for this. In general, an uninvolved stranger has no duty to intervene and cannot be held liable, civilly or criminally, for a failure to do so.

You're the one making the claim, so it's your burden to support the claim with verifiable, credible evidence. If you won't or can't, it would be reasonable for us to dismiss your statement as untrue.

I attempted to find the incident I remembered, but was unable to do so. There may have in fact been facts that I was not aware of either. Rarely are we aware of all the facts even when we witness an incident.

So I will hereby retract my statement as unverifiable.

Thank you for giving me a chance to verify my statement and retract it if It wasn’t.
 
Careful with this one. Couple days ago a distant cousin got killed trying to rescue a young lady. Happened in myrtle beach. He was 19 so no concealed carry. He and his friend saved the lady's life. Paid for it with his own. His friend is still in critical condition. Can post news article if any are interested.
 
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