Sporterized military rifles

These rifles could be a military “collectible” that lingers in the back of a safe to be pulled out once a year, get oiled and put back away, or be converted and used for hunting. Actually used.

IMO, original military rifles are pretty much useless. They’re not particularly accurate for the most part. They’re clunky. They’re not particularly comfortable to shoot. They were meant to be abused in battle

When I was a kid, we would take 50’s and 60’s vintage cars to the demolition derby. You can’t hold on to everything forever. You see those guys on American Pickers. Barns full of junk that they’re just convinced are gonna be worth a bazillion dollars some day.

If I want something to just look at, I’ll buy a painting and at least hang it on the wall so I can look at it. If you want to collect milsurps, have at it.

Some of us hunt with as-issued milsurps also. But I completely understand your opinion.

In the 1950s and 1960s if a military rifle was not NRA Excellent condition (partically unused), there was no collectors interest.
Even NRA Very Good condition was just a clunky, junky used military rifle good only for back up to a hunting rifle or as a barreled action or action to be converted to a hunting rifle.
1968 to 1986 saw all military surplus banned from import by the GCA.
Look at it this way: the military surplus rifle converted for a poor boy's deer rifle made the one left as-issued a bit more valuable to a collector.

AlexanderA said:

Note that the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting. Sporterizing makes a rifle less useful for its original military / militia purposes. It can therefore be argued that this process is anti-2nd Amendment.

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In the theme of second amendment. A correctly sporterized military rifle would have been coveted by the snipers of the day.

The Mauser 98 action is still in heavy demand for custom rifles, both new manufacture and vintage actions. Proven for over a hundred years.
Mine was made in 1933 in Oberndorf Germany. I have owned many rifles of many calibers and actions. My Mauser is the one irreplaceable rifle in my gun closet. It is in the original 8x57 but now wears a synthetic stock, has had leupold mounts rings and scope added, as well as a trap door magazine plate and a Timney Trigger. The Winchester model 70 as well as Ruger Mk 2 77, Kimbers, and more other actions than can be mentioned are all direct descendents or unashamed recreations of the original action. Enough said. I dont have an accessible picture to post here, but it has accounted for two moose and I have no idea how many white tails.

Post-war, (both WWI and II) there were two camps concerning Mausers. Some vets hated them because the enemy used them, maybe saw buddy killed with them, etc. Some appreciated the excellent action and potential for making a fine hunting rifle from one.

I'm past my sporterizing phase now, but there are still a couple residing in my safe next to the unmodified milsurps:



Both of my Martinis were rebuilt from military or paramilitary actions, so they probably count too, depending on how you define sporterization:



My Gewehr 98 Wehrmann rifle was reworked into a single-shot 8.15x46R for target shooting sometime back in the 1920s, so it probably counts too:


One category of reworked sporters that I particularly like are the custom 1903 Springfield makeovers done between the world wars by shops like Griffin & Howe.

redneck2 said:

IMO, original military rifles are pretty much useless.

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IMO, the whole question of usefulness has little place in a forum such as this.

When it comes to use, collecting and recreational shooting are every bit as valid as hunting in the modern, developed world. For that matter, I'd venture to say that many, perhaps most original condition milsurps are shot more frequently than the typical one-deer-a-year hunting rifle.

And if usefulness is defined only by rounds fired in anger, how often is a civilian typical self-defense weapon actually used? We own them because we might need them, which, along with regular practice, is use enough.

My feeling is that no safe employment of a firearm is useless, even if it just gives one collector pleasure when he looks at it fondly in a glass case. Neither is recreational shooting or practice a waste of ammunition. It's fun, it employs people, and it keeps the 2nd Amendment on the minds of that many more Americans.

Another aspect of this sporterizing is that we turn military guns into "Fudd" guns. A large portion of the gun community now looks down on "Fudd" guns.

AlexanderA said:

A large portion of the gun community now looks down on "Fudd" guns.

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Fudd em

rust collector said:

You can't save 'em all. Some of the pics in this thread reveal show guns that started with a military action, and which would not have been possible if other surplus had not been sacrificed as the Al Biesens and others mastered their trade. Minor mods and rescues now have a usefulness that safe queens will never enjoy.

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Some old military rifles that were transformed into "Safe Queens" live on to enjoy rather exciting lives. This is the "Safe Queen" that was shown on post #17 of this thread...

AlexanderA said:

Note that the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting. Sporterizing makes a rifle less useful for its original military / militia purposes. It can therefore be argued that this process is anti-2nd Amendment.

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Let's see . . . sporterized rifles were created to be lighter, perhaps shorter, and in many cases have the ability to mount some sort of optic.

Considering the world's militaries have gone on to having lighter and shorter "long arms" with optics mounted, the only thing a sporterized milsurp seems to give up to a modern military long arm is magazine capacity (and autoloading). And magazine capacity is something a pre-sporterized milsurp didn't have much of in the first place.

Offfhand said:

Some old military rifles that were transformed into "Safe Queens" live on to enjoy rather exciting lives. This is the "Safe Queen" that was shown on post #17 of this thread... View attachment 934645 View attachment 934646

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Great pictures, what mount is on that.

I'm of two minds on sporterized rifles.

On the one hand, you have the high-end professional sporterizations done in the '20s by old-line gunmakers on '03 Springfields and Mauser actions; the Lee-Speed family falls into this category, too. Those rifles are jewels, and there are times I'd give my eyeteeth to have one. A couple of steps down in the hierarchy are the homemade examples, some of which are decent rifles in their own right. I understand the rationale behind it. Sometimes I appreciate the care and attention that went into the conversion. Those are a product of their era and it doesn't make sense to second-guess now, and if it put meat on the table then it's probably served more a purpose than it might languishing in an armory rack.

Then there are the butcheries. These are the ones that would have fallen into the above category, except done badly by idiots. Uncrowned barrels, badly fit stocks, crooked drill-and-tap work...all hallmarks of the breed. Those are a waste of a perfectly good rifle. They're also a potential source of project material for hypocrites like me, who consider it high blasphemy to cut up a military rifle while simultaneously having a list of potential sporterization projects filed away. But like the former, what's done is done and you can't do much about it short of reconstructive surgery that costs more than the rebuild is worth.

My problem with sporterizers are the ones who insist on cutting up an untouched military rifle today. At this point you can find a serviceable (and much newer) basis for your build, whether from a new commercial action or one of the aforementioned butcheries.

Our chief instructor was one such animal...but that's another story for another day.

indy1919a4 said:

In the 60s & 70s.. people looked down their noses at folks who were hunting with unconverted mil-surp as poor souls

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At the time, the actions were less than dirt-cheap.
So, per all the glossy hunting and shooting magazines of the day, you took your $5 action, discard all the fussy parts, like the stock, bands, barrel and the like, went to your gun plumber, and had him ream a brand new (or an MG barrel, if your were a poor) to your .2437-47mm'08 hyper-duper beltless magnum improved, you had just sketched on a napkin from the diner. Which cost you something like $35, or maybe a months wages, whichever was smaller.
And, you only needed like two bucks for a custom monty carlo stock in some not-yet-endangered exotic hardwood.

This then was fit with a short barrel and express sights, on the off chance a leopard charged you on the veldt of Ohio. Or, you had a longish barrel and some sort of scope, so you pluck springbok from the jungles of Iowa. Yeah, the glossy magazines were a trip. And in the next month, another new wonder would be ginned up, and the full on cat's meow.

And, cousin Jo-Bob got by on his grandfather's 30-40 Krag, which may or may not have the stock cut down.

Using surplus rifles out of military 'uniform' has a long tradition in the US. There's a cool thread on a listing of old Remington dealer price lists that goes back to about 1900. It's fascinating to see all the military calibers available, by the case, in the catalogs of the 30s. 6mm Lee, .30-40 "government" .30-03 and .30-06, .45-70 "government" and so on.

We can assign all sorts of value to those acts today, but, really, we have to apply the values of "then," not "now" to them.

rust collector said:

My reference to safe queens was to military guns with high collector values because they are scarce, locked away in vaults to preserve their value rather than being exercised at matches and on the plains of the Serengeti, or at least in the bottom lands over yonder. Excellent tools should be used, not mummified or cloistered.

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Those dirty So-and-Sos , I would love to have some names so I could talk to them.. I would give them the full Dutch uncle treatment..

I'm loving this thread. Finally allowed to show my sporter pride! The sporterized military rifle appeals to me on another level. I've been known to go on a hunt with a truck that was worth less than the hunt, and it wasn't a very expensive hunt. I enjoy finding inexpensive tools that do the same thing, just as well, as very expensive tools. The milsurp sporter fits this philosophy perfectly. I have gotten more refined as I've aged and acquired resources, but the cheap still runs deep. Perhaps someday I will feel the need to replace, rebuild, accentuate "The Death Ray" (rebarreled K98 in .280 Rem), then it will be time to shop a mauser or springfield action again. The sky may be the limit on this one, and I may attempt to recreate something from the golden age of these type of firearms.

Here it is in all it's glory. My first bubba job. Rifle was a barreled action gunsmith closeout. He threw in the bottom metal and triggerguard and D/T for scope for a very reasonable price. Stock is Richards. Intentionally finished dark and matte, but there's a lot of figure when you get up close, just doesn't pop from across the room.

redneck2 said:

These rifles could be a military “collectible” that lingers in the back of a safe to be pulled out once a year, get oiled and put back away, or be converted and used for hunting. Actually used.

IMO, original military rifles are pretty much useless. They’re not particularly accurate for the most part. They’re clunky. They’re not particularly comfortable to shoot. They were meant to be abused in battle.

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entropy said:

Some of us hunt with as-issued milsurps also. But I completely understand your opinion.

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I remember when I was fooling with a K98 and surplus ammo... Turkish magnum crap hit +3'@100yds... Romanian didn't kick near as hard, but still hit ~+12"@100yds. However, with the issued sights, my first and only attempt at handloading the 8x57 round busted clay birds @100yds with a 170gr RN and enough IMR3031 for 2500fps by the Hornady book. My understanding is the German service load, with a 196gr FMJ, had the same velocity and zero as my handload. With a simple change of ammo, a supposedly overpowered inaccurate rifle became something to hunt with as issued. I didn't sporterize the K98, but I sure sporterized the ammo.

I hunted with the unchanged 6.5X52mm (the "original" 6.5mm?) M38 Carcano carbine my father let me pick out, and he checked over and approved, from the bucket stuffed full of them at GI Surplus store, alongside him using the SMLE he'd removed the top wood from. The Carcano is long gone due to frustrations with ammunition availability but I still have his SMLE for sentimental reasons. I fired a few rounds from that SMLE with its brass buttplate as a skinny gangly new teenager and never again, and I still have no desire to do so. I suppose removing that top wood falls into some degree of sporterizing but my father was an extremely practical DIY guy.

I've seen one really nicely sporterized M38 Carcano on Gunbroker.com early this year, before the pandemic pandemonium, that almost tempted me to spend the $299 the seller was asking. But that action never lent itself well to adding scopes and my eyes are nowhere near as sharp now as they were during my teenage years.

My hunting rifles are generally Zastava LK M70 / Interarms Mark X, Mauser 98 design manufactured specifically for sporting use, D&T at the factory, no butchering of any milsurps involved and still a bargain IMO for the metal and rich traditional true blued finish.

rust collector said:

Mind if I borrow that for my sig line?

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Have at it. Was inspired by some afternoon crabapple wine when I came up with it!

1903

A bit of perspective. At the end of WW II 40+ million bolt action rifles were rendered obsolete. Many were used to arm 3rd world nations, some sold to civilians (for $5-10), the rest fed into blast furnaces, 1000s per day.
A Vet making $1.25/hr who wanted a Deer rifle could pick one up for a day's wages. It had crap sights, trigger, and stock. A Lyman sight, trigger, and a chopped stock gave him a legitimate deer rifle, and saved one from the blast furnace.
35 million got melted down, cherish the ones that got saved.