Ever recover a firearm stolen from you?

P5 Guy said:

Pursuing the the person is a dead end, and you know that. Why should anyone have to surrender property they bought in good faith? Now if the broker is dealing with known felons that broker needs to be shutdown, period.

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why should anyone have to surrender their property that was stolen from them so that you can make a profit. if your business model depends on being able to keep stolen property and selling it for a profit, then your business model needs to change. Talk about special interest legislation at the expense of the general population.

In PA, the PICS system allows FFLs to check to see if a gun we plan to buy has been reported stolen. Now we ain't the cutting-edge of technology in PA, so I would assume that all states should be able to use the same kind of system.

Spats McGee said:

Sort of, but not exactly.

When LE (at least the ones I deal with) get a stolen property report, particularly something with a known serial number, they run it through Leads Online. If they find the item, they put a LE hold on it and notify the owner. At that point, they'll see if the owner can positively identify the stolen item, and the owner gets the opportunity to try to reclaim the item from the pawnbroker.

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Here's what I found when I searched for Arkansas § 18-27-304(b)

(a) Once an owner requests the return of stolen property, a dealer shall deliver a written notice as to the owner's rights.

(b) The written notice required by subsection (a) of this section shall be written in bold letters that are each at least 12-point type and read as follows:

“NOTICE CONCERNING STOLEN PROPERTY

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT THE RIGHTFUL OWNER MAY ASK A DEALER IN SECONDHAND GOODS (“DEALER”) TO RETURN STOLEN PROPERTY BY SHOWING PROOF OF OWNERSHIP OF THE PROPERTY AND SIGNING AN AFFIDAVIT AS TO OWNERSHIP, INDEMNIFYING AND HOLDING THE DEALER HARMLESS FROM LOSS (“AFFIDAVIT”).  THE AFFIDAVIT MUST RELATE TO IDENTIFIABLE STOLEN PERSONAL PROPERTY AND BE IN THE FORM BELOW OR ATTACHED TO THIS NOTICE.  AFTER DELIVERY OF THE AFFIDAVIT TO THE DEALER AND THE RELEASE OF ANY PROPERTY HOLD PLACED ON THE PROPERTY BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, THE DEALER HAS SEVEN (7) DAYS TO EITHER RELINQUISH THE IDENTIFIABLE STOLEN PERSONAL PROPERTY OR FILE A LEGAL ACTION IN COURT TO DETERMINE OWNERSHIP.

IF THE DEALER REFUSES TO DELIVER THE PROPERTY OR FILE AN ACTION IN COURT TO DETERMINE OWNERSHIP WITHIN SEVEN (7) DAYS THEREAFTER, THE OWNER MAY ATTEMPT TO RECOVER THE ITEMS OF STOLEN PERSONAL PROPERTY WITHOUT PAYMENT TO THE DEALER BY FILING A LEGAL ACTION IN COURT.  IF THE COURT DETERMINES THAT THE DEALER REFUSED TO EITHER DELIVER THE PERSONAL PROPERTY OR FILE AN ACTION IN COURT TO DETERMINE OWNERSHIP WITHIN SEVEN (7) DAYS, WITHOUT REASONABLE CAUSE, THE DEALER COULD BE ORDERED TO RETURN THE IDENTIFIABLE STOLEN PERSONAL PROPERTY TO THE OWNER WITHOUT CHARGE TO THE OWNER.

HOWEVER, IF THE COURT DETERMINES THAT THE PROPERTY WAS ACQUIRED BY THE DEALER FROM A FAMILY MEMBER OR FRIEND, THE OWNER IS ENTITLED TO RECOVER THE PROPERTY ONLY UPON REIMBURSING THE COST TO THE DEALER OF ACQUIRING THE PROPERTY.

IF LEGAL ACTION IS FILED TO RECOVER PROPERTY IN THE POSSESSION OF THE DEALER, THE COURT MAY AWARD AND APPORTION COSTS AND ATTORNEY'S FEES AS APPROPRIATE.

“IDENTIFIABLE STOLEN PERSONAL PROPERTY” MEANS PERSONAL PROPERTY THAT IS:

(A) REPORTED STOLEN TO AN APPROPRIATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY;

(B) DESCRIBED IN THE OFFICIAL STOLEN PROPERTY REPORT OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY BY SERIAL NUMBER, VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER, LICENSE REGISTRATION NUMBER, OR OTHER NUMBERS, LETTERS, SYMBOLS, OR MARKINGS THAT AUTHENTICATE THE SPECIFIC PERSONAL PROPERTY IN THE POSSESSION OF DEALER;  AND

(C) CONNECTED BY DOCUMENTATION (SUCH AS A RECEIPT) PRESENTED TO THE DEALER BY THE OWNER DEMONSTRATING THE LIKELIHOOD OF CURRENT OWNERSHIP.

TO PROCEED, PLEASE COMPLETE THE FOLLOWING AFFIDAVIT AND DELIVER TO THE DEALER.

AFFIDAVIT AS TO OWNERSHIP, INDEMNITY AND HOLD HARMLESS AGREEMENT

STATE OF ARKANSAS

COUNTY OF __________

BEFORE THE UNDERSIGNED, __________, DULY QUALIFIED AND ACTING IN AND FOR THIS COUNTY AND STATE, APPEARED __________ [TO ME WELL KNOWN] [SATISFACTORILY PROVEN] TO BE THE AFFIANT HEREIN, WHO STATED THE FOLLOWING UNDER OATH:

1. I, __________, AM THE SOLE, TRUE AND ABSOLUTE OWNER OF PERSONAL PROPERTY (“PROPERTY”), FREE OF ANY LIENS AND ENCUMBRANCES DESCRIBED AS:







AND CURRENTLY IN THE POSSESION   1 OF:



(“DEALER”)

2. I HAVE REPORTED THE PROPERTY STOLEN TO THE APPROPRIATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY AND HAVE PRESENTED THE DEALER WITH THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION WITH REGARD TO MY OWNERSHIP OF THE PROPERTY AND SUCH DOCUMENTATION IS ATTACHED HERETO:

a. OFFICIAL STOLEN PROPERTY REPORT OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY SHOWING SERIAL NUMBER, VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER, LICENSE REGISTRATION NUMBER, OR OTHER NUMBERS, LETTERS, SYMBOLS, OR MARKINGS THAT AUTHENTICATE THE SPECIFIC PERSONAL PROPERTY IN THE POSSESSION OF DEALER.  SAID REPORT IS ISSUED BY:



AND HAS A REPORT NUMBER OF

b. DOCUMENTATION DEMONSTRATING THE LIKELIHOOD OF MY CURRENT OWNERSHIP OF THE PROPERTY, SPECIFICALLY DESCRIBED AS:



3. I WILL COOPERATE WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE PROSECUTOR IN ALL RESPECTS REGARDING THE THEFT OF PROPERTY.

4. I UNDERSTAND THE DEALER CANNOT RELEASE PROPERTY THAT IS SUBJECT TO A LAW ENFORCEMENT PROPERTY HOLD AND ANY SUCH HOLD MUST BE REMOVED BEFORE THE PROPERTY CAN BE DELIVERED TO ME.

5. I UNDERSTAND THE DEALER HAS SEVEN (7) DAYS TO EITHER RELEASE THE PROPERTY TO ME OR FILE A LEGAL ACTION TO DETERMINE OWNERSHIP.

6. THE PERSON THAT CAUSED THE ITEM TO BE IN THE POSSESSION OF THE DEALER IS NOT A FAMILY MEMBER OR FRIEND OF MINE.

7. I UNDERSTAND THAT I MAY BE SUBJECT TO CIVIL OR CRIMINAL PENALTIES IF THE REPRESENTATIONS I AM MAKING HEREIN ARE UNTRUE.

8. I WILL INDEMNIFY AND HOLD THE DEALER HARMLESS FOR ANY AND ALL LOSS OCCASIONED BY THE REPRESENTATIONS MADE IN THIS AFFIDAVIT WITH REGARD TO THE PROPERTY.

FURTHER THE AFFIANT SAYETH NOT.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I HEREUNTO SET MY HAND THIS __________ DAY OF__________.



OWNER

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS __________ DAY OF__________.



[OFFICIAL TITLE]

MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:

__________[SEAL]”

In the incident I mentioned my old friend reported the theft and gave LE the description and S/N of his pistol. Months later LE notified him that his pistol had been pawned and the name and location of the pawn shop.

From the way my old friend explained to me what he was advised by LE and from the way I read the above quoted code it kinda sounds to me like unless the property in question has extreme irreplaceable personal value you are better off forgetting it. Especially if insurance has reimbursed you for it already.

Maybe as a lawyer you have a different opinion but from this layman's understanding and perspective it sounds like there are more possible pitfalls than opportunities available thru this law.

Please correct me if this isn't as bad as it sounds to me.

While I do think common sense and the law are often on the same track, I find they're generally headed full steam in the opposite direction from one another. That said, if the original "acquisition" by the thief is an illegal activity, shouldn't anything that proceeds downstream from it be illegal as well? If thug X steals a gun, sells it to thug Y, and thug Y is apprehended with it, seems to me thug Y is going down for possession of stolen property, amongst other things, whether he knows if thug x stole it or not....that said, I don't/can't see what entitlement the pawnbroker has to be made whole, and what obligation the original owner has to have to purchase the same gun twice?

recoverd s/w in cal.to many problems to get it back.ca.sucks

jonnyc said:

In PA, the PICS system allows FFLs to check to see if a gun we plan to buy has been reported stolen. Now we ain't the cutting-edge of technology in PA, so I would assume that all states should be able to use the same kind of system.

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That's interesting. In PA I bought a stolen handgun from a dealer. When I bought it, the sale went through the PICS system just fine. When I discovered it was stolen and reported it to the police, the firearm was confiscated, and eventually returned to the original owner. The thief got the gun shop's money, the gun shop got my money and the original owner got his gun back. The court jailed the thief and required him to make restitution to me, not an optimal situation, as he stole multiple firearms and had lots of people to make restitution to (and he was stealing to feed a drug habit, not to pad his 401K's, so wasn't flush with resources). As Frank says: You can't expect to be able to figure out what the law is or how it works just by trying to "reason it out.", sometimes you need to experience it's peculiar notion of justice.

I recovered a revolver for my grandmother.
A local kid broke into her house and stole her Iver Johnson hammerless .38 S&W and some junk jewelry.
He was caught on the road in front of her house by his parent for being out at two o'clock in the morning. He apparently threw what he stole in the deep, wide, water-filled ditch that ran along the road when his parent drove up..
We would have just written the loss off except that he bragged to his friends about the theft and they told their parents, who told Grandma, who told me to go look for her stuff.
After wading around in that cold, cruddy water for about an hour I found the gun and most of her jewelry - then went in and had a nice, long shower while Dad cleaned the gun.
I still have that old pistol, by the way.

I've actually located a rifle that was stolen from me but I decided that I didn't want it back.

It was during Spring Break of my senior year, 1973 that my Father decided to move our family from Eugene, Oregon to Los Angeles. We stuffed most of our possessions into storage (never to be seen again, as usual), hooked my tiny travel trailer to the old Rambler wagon and took off. I had smuggled my four rifles and my bike into the trailer, just about all that I got to save,

Instead of going straight to L.A, Dad decided to stop off at a remote camp site on the Rogue River, 30 miles up a dirt road. We made it about half way before finding ourselves in three feet of snow with a burned out clutch.

The six of us, including an infant, spent a month up there before escaping, In the two days that we were gone, someone raided our camp and stole everything that was loose.

Forward to 2011. I walk in to a pawn shop in Mission, Texas. There on the gun rack was one of my rifles - a Golden West Arms MAS 36 that had been re-barrelled in 7.35 Carcano. It even retained the crude repairs that I had made to the broken upper sling mount.

It was in pretty rough shape. I don't think that it had been cleaned or oiled since it had been stolen. I just looked it over, smiled, handed it back and left.

The only gun I ever had stolen was a Italian 1910 Glisenti and that was about 45 years ago.
I'm pretty sure who the little twerp that stole, but I couldn't prove it. (A "friend" of my 14 YO daughter.)
Anyway, I hoped that he, or whoever ended up with it, tried shooting some 9mm submachine gun ammo in it.