Four U.S. cities sue BATFE

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hso

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...atf-over-untraceable-ghost-guns-idUSKBN25M1OW

(Reuters) - Chicago and three other cities on Wednesday sued the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), demanding it correct how it interprets what is a firearm and halt the sale of untraceable “ghost gun” kits increasingly used in crimes.

The lawsuit is the first of its kind filed against the ATF, according to lawyers for the cities of Chicago, San Jose, Columbia, South Carolina, and Syracuse, New York. It was filed in the Southern District of New York.

So-called “ghost gun” or “80% gun” kits are self-assembled from parts purchased online or at gun shows. The parts that are assembled are not classified as a firearm by the ATF. For that reason they can be legally sold with no background checks and without serial numbers to identify the finished product.

The lawsuit argues the ATF and the Department of Justice “refuse to apply the clear terms of the Gun Control Act,” which the suit says defines regulated firearms as not only working weapons “but also their core building blocks - frames for pistols, and receivers for long guns.”

The ATF says on its website that receivers in which the fire-control cavities are solid “have not reached the ‘stage of manufacture’ which would result in the classification of a firearm.”

The ATF said in an emailed statement that it would not comment on pending litigation. It said that its “regulatory and enforcement functions are focused and clearly defined by laws.” The bureau emphasized that it investigates criminal possession and other criminal use of privately made firearms.

Everytown for Gun Safety, an advocacy group that is a plaintiff in the lawsuit along with the cities, argues that until about 2006, the ATF did require unfinished components that clearly were going to be used to make guns to carry a serial number and anyone buying them undergo a background check.

“The ATF used to interpret the Gun Control Act the right way - they would look at how quickly a frame or receiver could be converted into an operable weapon,” said Eric Tirschwell, managing director for the litigation arm of Everytown. “If it was pretty quickly, they would say ‘yeah, that’s a firearm.’”

How many ghost guns are in circulation is unknown, but law enforcement agencies are unanimous in saying numbers are growing. Police in Washington, D.C. last year recovered more than 100 ghost guns - a 342% increase over 2018. They are already on pace this year to double the number found.

The ATF has said upward of 30% of the illegal weapons it has confiscated in some areas of California are ghost guns.

Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, whose city has been beset by gun violence, demanded the ATF close the ghost gun loophole and regulate the sale of gun parts that are marketed to easily be used to build guns.

“Individuals with dangerous histories shouldn’t be able to order lethal weapons on the internet with a few quick clicks,” Lightfoot said.

But Rick Vasquez, a Virginia-based firearms consultant and former ATF technical expert who evaluated guns and gun products to help the bureau determine if they were legal, said anyone wanting to address the proliferation of kit guns should pass new laws in Congress.
 
Recently, I made a thread about ghost gun used in a crime in CA to discuss issues such as the future of 80% builds.

Robert narrow mindedly shut it down real quick and none of the staff had minimal courtesy to reply to my inquiry as to why.

So thanks HSO, maybe we can discuss it now.

IMO, this will gain more traction over time as more and more of them are used in crimes. I'm also of the belief that they'll be banned with the distinction that home builds are not the same as starting with a commercially available 80 receiver/frame.
 
.....and as a stock trader and as unrelated as can be, Dick’s Spirting Goods stock is skyrocketing; most don’t care if they do not sell AR’s anymore and did I mention Walmart stock - we on this forum have to start thinking a tad bit more broadly and intelligently about our hobby - if the changing of our general culture was a snake, you would have been bitten. That light you see is not the light at the end of the tunnel, it is the exit to your cave.
 
.....and as a stock trader and as unrelated as can be, Dick’s Spirting Goods stock is skyrocketing; most don’t care if they do not...

Seems very recent firearms NEW PURCHASE sales skyrocketing up, up, upward, higher, highest

...stock - we on this forum have to start thinking a tad bit more broadly and intelligently about our hobby - if the changing of our general culture was...
I'd like to add, seems very recent firearms NEW PURCHASE sales skyrocketing up, up, upward, higher, highest

:)
 
Ghost guns... the latest straw man issue for one side of the political spectrum...

All the while either ignoring or preventing any meaningful action against individuals who choose to act criminally with firearms...

Surprise, surprise, surprise...

A 10 - 20 - Life law, like we passed and enforced here in Florida is a pretty good start for any state with serious criminal firearms crimes as a problem.
 
Ghost guns... the latest straw man issue for one side of the political spectrum...

All the while either ignoring or preventing any meaningful action against individuals who choose to act criminally with firearms...

Surprise, surprise, surprise...

A 10 - 20 - Life law, like we passed and enforced here in Florida is a pretty good start for any state with serious criminal firearms crimes as a problem.
True, but do we even bother to stick to that law any more? Seems the DAs in the liberal areas like Miami, Clearwater, etc., don't bother.
 
I am not a huge fan of criminalizing behavior that does not directly harm someone else. I am more of the no harm, no foul persuasion.

I am not sure how the cities think that a law suit is the way to get what they want, other than hoping to get it to a liberal judge.

if they really cared about making this happen there are ways to get the rule making bureaucrats to reopen the rules making process.
 
Problem then becomes, if ATF accedes to this lawsuit becomes where to draw the line?
Will having a vise block be "constructive possession"?
An AR wrench?
A socket set? Drill bits?
Rifled barrel?
Trigger group?

The ATF is following a legal definition of just what is a gun.
Selling firearms to prohibited persons is already illegal.
A prohibited person making a firearm for their own use is also illegal.
Committing crimes with firearms is already illegal.

Hard to make things more illegal.

The point above is very apt, suing ATF to create new "laws" will not slow the problem created by failing to enforce the existing laws.
 
The point above is very apt, suing ATF to create new "laws" will not slow the problem created by failing to enforce the existing laws.
Yes. However, note that the people doing the suing could care less if the criminals abide by the laws. The new laws/rules will only be followed by the law abiding. Nothing will change except the loss of freedom of the law abiding people.
 
Nothing new with the exception of the term "Ghost Gun". My formative years were the 60s, growing up NYC when the popular terminology was "Zip Gun". The concept is nothing new as the zip gun was popularized in the classic 1961 West Side Story (Jets and Sharks).

Another example of the "brain dead" passing the buck for their failures.
That pretty well covers it. Not only brain dead but those who choose to ignore the truth.

Just My Take
Ron
 
George, what you've cited is a very serious problem across the country where folks with a deliberate anti- law and order philosophy not only run for District Attorney - but are funded by that fine individual George Soros (and others...) with enough monies to win... that leads to disastrous results for the folks that have to live in places like Philadephia, L.A., - and too many others. Some of them actually make that infamous mayor in New York city look like a Boy Scout....

I'm not particularly political. As a retired cop I have a pretty jaundiced view of the way government actually works - but this nonsense where someone is deliberately elected as the chief prosecutor for a big city - planning on not enforcing the laws... That's very bad business. If it keeps up we'll see an occasional vigilante here or there - out of pure frustration at a legal system that allows dangerous people to operate openly without consequence... That's a recipe for anarchy... I don't want to see our country end up like most places south of our border where "justice" is a private matter (and family obligation...) instead of a public matter with well understood laws, rules and procedures for all of us to follow... Down here in south Florida, many that my officers dealt with came from places where justice was simply non-existent.... Once again - very bad business any way you look at it...


I found this article enlightening.

https://www.myfloridalaw.com/10-20-life-florida/
 
I'd have an easier time believing they cared about ghost guns in the hands of felons if places like Chicago actually prosecuted felons caught with any gun, ghost or otherwise. There likely isn't an easier case for a prosecutor to make . . . "On this date you were convicted of a felony. On this later date you were found in possession of this firearm. Ta Da!"
 
NY law says criminal possession of a handgun, in and of itself, is a mandatory one year sentence. Unless there are extenuating circumstances.

Guess what, most plea bargains somehow found extenuating circumstances to the point that very few actually went to jail.

The judges and DA's were complicit in this, the victims were the people of the state of NY.

So politicians can talk about rampant gun violence, but they are the enablers.
 
Any actual statistics on "ghost guns" usage in crime? (Other than seizures of guns in anti-gun jurisdictions. I mean guns actually misused with criminal impact on public safety.)

Any actual statistics on "undetectable" Glocks smuggled on board airliners by hijackers?

You dont see any offered.
Why?

"Ghost guns" are like the "plastic/ceramic Glock "Hijacker Special" undetectable to Xrays or metal detector" a surmised hypothetical parroted for years by gun banners and clueless news media.
 
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As a retired cop I have a pretty jaundiced view of the way government actually works

While clearly not retired (I'm just tired), I have carried a badge in both the civilian world and the military. Also worked for a number of years for another government agency that shall remain unnamed. Suffice to say it had something to do with the mail.
I have a (if I may paraphrase) jaundiced view of the government actually working. They can't actually define what an assault weapon is yet large numbers of them want to make them illegal. One mental giant says she'll make importation of AR-15's illegal even though that is a Colt model designation and made in the USA as are 98% of all AR-15 style weapons.

Ghost gun is a term that appeals to them because it's so scary to the general public. Ghost guns.... and they (lawmakers, journalists, the general public....) can't explain exactly what they are, I'd bet a cookie. "They're guns that go BOO instead of BANG" I am hoping the number of first time gun buyers, esp those from the NE , will give us a bigger population of people who have a basic understanding of things firearmish.
Hopefully they will also start to be able to discern the difference between reality and movies. Reality and news spin. Silencers don't silence. guns recoil when fired and there is a finite amount of ammunition in a firearm at any given time.

Seems to me that most of the politicians do little well besides getting reelected.
 
I'm curious; from a legal standpoint it seems to me that a "ghost gun" is either a gun or it's not a gun. If it's not a gun I don't see how the 2nd Amendment could be stretched to protect them. And if they are, it seems that any laws regulating firearms should regulate them.
 
Any actual statistics on "ghost guns" usage in crime? (Other than seizures of guns in anti-gun jurisdictions. I mean guns actually misused with criminal impact on public safety.)

Any actual statistics on "undetectable" Glocks smuggled on board airliners by hijackers?

You dont see any offered.
Why?

"Ghost guns" are like the "plastic/ceramic Glock "Hijacker Special" undetectable to Xrays or metal detector" a surmised hypothetical parroted for years by gun banners and clueless news media.
Just like in the early 90's when Black Talons were wiped off the shelves for having that special coating that made them especially suited to killing cops and defeating armor.
 
Most can see right through this sort of stuff.... but remember the actual suits have nothing to do with "banning this or banning that"... they're all about getting these worthless Attorney Generals... re-elected. I know I'm pretty cynical but that's what a career in law enforcement taught me - and some lessons you don't forget.
 
It wasn't that long ago that Saturday night specials it was the buzzword for guns that were inappropriate for us normal people to have.

Basically it meant any gun that a poor person could afford.
 
This has been closed because:

1. It wandered into politics
2. Some posters were not in accord with THR's mission. We do not condone calls for violence.

Posts have been deleted and warnings issued.
 
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