Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 durability

I went back to the OP because I couldn’t see how I possibly could have missed that. Didn’t see it so I went to the linked website(which I did not do originally) and there it was.

eastbank said:

to see for your self go to where they shoot trap-skeet-sporting clays and list the make and model,s of shotguns used , you will than have a good idea of what lasts and what don,t. if you shoot very much, over the years the cost of the shotgun with not even come close to the cost of the shells and fee,s to shoot. my main trap singles trap is a browning BT 100 with over 40,000 shells-1600 boxs thru it with out any repairs or parts, only cleaning it. at a average 5.00 dollars a box that comes to at least 8000.00 dollars and untold dollars for fee,s.

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I have 1 Browning that has ~350,000 rounds through it. At an average of $1/shot for ammo and target (that's practice and tournament where costs are higher) the price of the gun is nothing. I have a friend who has shot box pigeons for quite some time. he shoots an Ivo Fabbri; current replacement cost is ~ $89,000..........BUT if you are good enough, you can win that much back in 1 or 2 shoots....and he did so; everything after that was gravy..............

The best indicator of shotgun life I've ever found are major clay bird shooters.
They say that the Mossberg 500 series will start to break parts before 20,000 rounds and the cast aluminum receiver will develop cracks around 70,000 rounds.
Most aluminum receiver guns will begin cracking below 80,000 rounds.

The Remington 870 may break a firing pin around 80,000 to 100,000 rounds and may begin getting cracks around the ejector port around 250,000 rounds.

During WWII the US Army Air Corp used semi-auto Browning A5 shotguns to train pilots and air gunners.
Some of those were documented to have 1,000,000 rounds through them.

JudgeHolden10 said:

We used to demil the shotguns and destroy them

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That doesn't make any sense to me. Why destroy them? If nothing else, parts are usually worth keeping for resale or reuse.

JudgeHolden10 said:

The owner of a high-volume shooting range in Vegas has a few long and detailed posts on another forum about high round counts on various models of firearms that his range rents. From reading through the other threads, I've drawn several conclusions about the owner:

• He has extensive experience with the maintenance of many, many firearms over a long period of time
  
• He has his employees keep records of how often firearms have to be repaired
• He is honest about brands, no matter if they are expensive or not

A few days ago, I was cleaning some bookmarks from my browser when I realized that I bookmarked his shotgun thread and went back to read it. Here's the paragraph that caught my eye:

"I will have to more details as to what parts break in our Mossberg's and Remington's but it's fair to say that the 'low budget' model of each lasts about the same amount of time on the range. One doesn't outshine the other and they all last about the 2-4 weeks on average before suffering from parts failure that takes the weapon off the line." [emphasis added]

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/...ington--Benelli-and-Chinese-clones/1-474035/?

There are several points to mention here if you don't want to read the whole post.

• His shotguns are fed a diet of buckshot
• His shotguns are rentals
• Although it's not clear from the OP, he later mentions that at least some of the shotguns are older ones with metal parts

Regardless, I was pretty surprised by the comment about two to four weeks. I would have thought that even a budget shotgun would last six months to a year.

To be clear, I don't think the owner of the range is exaggerating or lying, but his experience does not mesh with mine at all. Maybe it's because I don't shoot hundreds of rounds of buckshot with mine, nor do the people I know.

Here's my question: how many THR members have had a part break on an 870 or 500 from wear? I'm not talking about the time that it dropped on a concrete floor shortly before a truck rolled over it.

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That's not a durability report. Parts on guns will need to be replaced. A durability report would be one how many rounds fired until the receiver cracks. On 870's it is rarely below 50,000 rounds. There haven't been enough Trapshooters that shot 500's day in and out for years and years to amass the requisite number of rounds it takes to cause such a major failure.
Papa G has posted about sending his 870 back to Remington for a new receiver, and IIRC it was over 50,000 rounds.(Edit. I didn't see his post above before I posted.) Trap shooters that shoot 500's tend to do so for a year or two, and if they stay in the game they tend to show up the next year with a BT-99 or Citori. A lot of us shot our 870's for many many, years, not just with Trap loads, either. Daro Handy and Fred Etchen shot 870's exclusively for decades. Vic Reinders shot a Remington 31, the predecessor of the 870 for over 5 decades.

Parts will need to be replaced when guns are shot. That's just the cost of doing business. Also keep in mind rental guns are often handled by people who bang them into things, abuse them slamming them shut, drop them and other things most gun owners don't do to their own guns.

when we see lower end shotguns show up at the six different clubs i shoot the clays games, its mostly new shooters and if they stay at it they mostly move up the scale to shotguns better suited for the high number of shell shot. i think i,ll start to count the different shotgun makers that show up at the shoots for my own info. not picking on any makers.

Most new shooters do not want to spend the money up front for a better gun until they determine that this is a game they want to pursue; that is very understandable from one point of view.........HOWEVER, buying once and crying once has its advantages as well; if one decides to not pursue the games, the resale on a better quality gun will be a higher % of original price paid. As a friend of mine once told me, "Buy a Kreighoff now, and in 5-10 years you'll be able to sell it for what you paid for it, thus allowing you to shoot a great gun for free"
He's right.
Besides, those of us who do shoot a lot know that the really huge cost is targets and ammo, followed by travel expenses to tournaments; the price of the gun is minuscule in comparison.

My Mossberg 500 is so old, it carries the Western Auto trade name “Revelation”. When I bought it, it was at the bottom of a pile of ex-security company riot guns, in very used and abused condition. 18” barrel shortened from a longer one, but done right.
Most of the finish on the barrel gone, and the wood stocks worn through the finish to bare wood. Barrel had a good coat of lead inside, so it had been shot. This was at a guns show, circa 1990, and the price was $75.
Since I’ve had it, I’ve poured buckshot and slug through it. The only problem it ever had...after 20yrs of shooting, the ejector screw loosened, and I had a couple FTE’s. Loktite and screwdriver fixed it.
It has worn different stocks, been a folder, been a pgo.
A little before the pandemic, I found a deal on a 20”/7-shot barrel and mag, so that’s how it is set up now, along with magpul stocks.
I’m not sure where a Mossberg reciever would crack, as nothing is hitting it, no force is applied. All the lockup is accomplished by the bolt and barrel extension. I would be concerned about the new Mossbergs that have the action bars attached directly to the Forend.

well when you shoot 250-300 rounds a week, week in week out will soon show you what lasts. and those numbers are low for some shooters at the clays games.

870's are pretty well known to be fragile by the Slam-the-barrel-into-the-receiver-like-an-idiot crowd after cleaning, but beyond that, I have never seen a breakage. I know a former professional trap shooter, he ran years on his 870's without breakage, as did his amateur, but still heavy shooting kids. Mines probably had a few thousand without breakage. In a rental scenario, if you were extremely busy, and that 1 870 was extremely popular, I could see about 1500 rounds a day. Based on a 12 hour day, about 2 rounds per minute. That would be far, far more use than any rental range I have seen. At that rate, 2 weeks could be 21,000 rounds of buckshot. 40,000 in a month. I could see that tearing up parts.
Most rental ranges I know would see 1000 rounds/month. People like trying different things, and all the ranges I know don't require you to stick with what you first chose.
I am more interested in receiver life for the Mossburgs though. Fatigue limits are a thing, and the 870 has a huge advantage in that area.

Edit to add. The Benelli M4 ergonomics are terrible. Its heavy, awkward, points unnaturally, and the length of pull is way to long for a normal person. Sights are in a weird position, and hard to use. I doubt the crowds that rent it burn through the rounds like an pump. I know when I was given an M4 and and a full ammo can to try free, I went through 2 mags, and handed it back. I later bought an 1187. If its bad handling enough for me to turn down free ammo, thats saying something. Sorry to the many M4 fans... I'm sure its perfect for some people, just not me, or most average people. I have nothing bad to say about other than that.

mjsdwash said:

I am more interested in receiver life for the Mossburgs though. Fatigue limits are a thing, and the 870 has a huge advantage in that area.

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Except, as amd6547 noted:

amd6547 said:

I’m not sure where a Mossberg reciever would crack, as nothing is hitting it, no force is applied. All the lockup is accomplished by the bolt and barrel extension.

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SwampWolf said:

Except, as amd6547 noted:

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but the recoil still makes its way to the stock. Because the lockup does not connect to the stock except through the receiver, it must transmit that stress. It may be absorbing it the form of compression, where fatigue is less critical, but its still moving in an arc, with the barrel, and stock acting as lever against that motion. Its only curiosity.

There is no compression involved...your shoulder will absorb the impact, not the stock/receiver juncture.

Same thing is true of the 870. The locking block engages the barrel extension. My point was that nobody has put as many rounds through a Mossberg 500 as many Trapshooters have through their 870's. The few people that have gussied up a 500 for Trap, (Adjustable comb, recoil reducer, high rib) usually shoot them for a couple years, then upgrade. In post #31, I mentioned several Trap shooters that won The Grand with their 870's; I can't recall one ever doing so with a 500, and that I would remember.

And a Mossberg would crack right at the back of the ejection port, where 870's crack when they get a couple hundred thousand round through them.

2-4 weeks? BS.... I suspect he wants to sell more expensive guns lol. I've put many thousands of rounds, buckshot,, slugs,, turkey loads, field loads and skeet loads, through my 30+ year old 500, in all kinds of weather. It's not pampered and has seen lots of tough usage. Literally not a single issue, ftf, fte or breakage. Ever.

Did a google on Mossberg 500 receiver cracks, and got zero. Nothing on shotgunworld and nothing on the Mossberg forum.
Read a report by a guy who served in Iraq using Mossberg 590’s that were a few years old when they got them, nobody had any problems, and they were handed off to the next unit. Service weapons in a war zone.

How many 500's got 150,000 rounds put through them?

Apparently not many, or else you wouldn’t be the only person to see it.

mossberg did make a trap shotgun some years ago, i remember a follow trap shooter haveing one. he didn,t keep it long as he said it didn,t fit him. tonight i,ll start keeping track of the make of shotguns used at the clay shoots i attend. tonight i,m taking a rem 1187 trap and a classic 1100 rem trap, both in 12 ga.

Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 lockup with the barrel extension and bolt locking block. Any idea on the round counts for Winchester Model 12 and Ithaca M37 which lock up into the steel receiver?

I spent 15 years as the gun repair, and gun cleaning person for a local shop. I have also maintained both a Remington 870 and a Mossberg 500 for my entire life since adulthood. I am 72 now. The only thing I will say abought that 2 to 4 weeks is that I don't buy it. From my experience it is BS.
If you think a bit abought it a 2 to 4 week breakdown would have the shooting world in a stage of not buying either of those guns and yet they are the most popular pump guns available and have been for decades..

last night i shot a 48-50 with my two rem,s,24-25 for each. 19 brownings-2 turkey made-5 remingtons-3 mossberg silver reserves- 2 model 12,s. i see didn,t any problems with any, most were shooting reloads.

dak0ta said:

Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 lockup with the barrel extension and bolt locking block. Any idea on the round counts for Winchester Model 12 and Ithaca M37 which lock up into the steel receiver?

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Most of the old pre-war forged and milled parts "Tank" shotguns like the Winchester Model 12 and the John Browning designed Ithaca Model 37 apparently HAD no service life limit....They lasted almost forever so no one wore one out.
In the early 20th Century professional hunters used the Winchester Model 97 and 12 to virtually wipe out a lot of American game and they fired more ammo then they could count with no worn out guns.

Where shotguns began to have definite service lives was after WWII and the advent of shotguns made with "space age materials"; aluminum, stamped parts, and plastics.
It took some time but it was finally recognized that aluminum and plastic guns would actually wear out and would give trouble a lot sooner then the old steel tanks.

The classic case in point was Winchester and the infamous 1964 reordering of their lineup of guns.
They could no longer afford to make the old Model 12 so they came up with a new space age Model 1200.
It was serviceable for sporting use, but where the wheels came off was with the police, which until then Winchester OWNED the LE market.

Winchester sold the 1200 to the police as a totally modern gun that was better and cheaper then the old Model 12.
What the police found was that it just didn't stand up to the abuse that police guns were then getting.
Before this, police guns were literally riot guns.....They sat in racks at headquarters until there was a riot, a man hunt, or a barricaded suspect, then the shotguns were issued out.
As soon as the situation was over, the guns were put back in the racks until next time.
Under those conditions any of the older designs would last forever, and in fact a lot of police departments had shotguns bought in the 1920's that were still perfectly good.

The problem was, in the 1960's crime exploded, drugged criminals got a lot more violent and were a lot more likely to start shooting.
The police were forced to begin putting shotguns in every patrol car.
Under those circumstances the modern aluminum and stamped internals shotguns just failed to stand up to the constant handling, practice shooting, and the police night watch version "Of hold my beer and watch this" misadventures.

The Winchester Model 1200 failed, so Winchester quickly attempted some fixes. It still failed so they did a fast upgrade to a new version named the Model 1300.
It failed too, and the police made it clear they were not buying any more Winchester shotguns, and no major police agency ever bought a Winchester gun again.

The gun that did stand up was Remington's Model 870.
Remington got this one right, using a forged steel receiver with heavy duty fabricated internal parts.
The 870 won about 95% of the American law enforcement market, which it still maintains today, because it does stand up.
Virtually every local, state, and Federal agency uses the 870, and it isn't because they get a cheaper price then other brands.
It's because since 1950 the 870 has proven itself reliable and tough enough to last under heavy use.

Mossberg made a try for the police market with the Model 500, but like the other aluminum and stamped internals guns it too failed and they had to do a major re-work to the Model 590 series to get any traction in the LE market.
Mossberg advertised that "Only the Mossberg was able to pass the grueling US Government 3,000 round test" to win the contract to supply guns to the military and some Federal LE agencies.
The truth was ONLY Mossberg submitted a gun to the test.
The test was a simple pass-fail test, which if the gun passed the company could submit a bid to supply guns.
Since no American maker was able to make a shotgun cheaper then Mossberg's cast aluminum gun, there was no chance anyone else was going to get the contract, so no one submitted a gun.

The point is, under most of today's designs aluminum receivered guns simply aren't as durable as a forged steel receiver gun.

Any idea on longevity of the Benelli Nova/Supernova now been around since 1999 - so just over 20 years? Steel frame with polymer coating.