Two Missions, Two Paths, One Gun

TarDevil said:

My wife really likes S&W L frames. She's pretty much decided on the 4" 586... I might see if we can find a 629 for her to handle before we buy anything.

Edited to add: She isn't recoil sensitive.

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Soooooo you're looking for an excuse for an ar, get a lower, add an upper in 6.5 grendel, add another in .350, then for giggles a valkyrie, then another in .450, then top it all off with a .458 and you have literally EVERY option covered from every angle, play with them all, and sell the ones that don't tickle your fancy (as they ALL fit the bill you've described, this should be an amusing challenge for you and the wife to spend the time on).

lemaymiami said:

Time to display my ignorance... I was away from firearms for quite a few years after retiring out from police work in 1995 .... In fact this is one of only two weapons sites I visit so point me in the right direction... I qualified with both M-14 and M-16 all those years ago before ending up on the other side of the world in 1971. A few years back in-country I went into police work but all of my long gun experience is with the shotgun - so other than 5.56 and 308 (and 30 carbine) most of the newer in between rifle calibers are foreign to this guy. I do have quite a bit of experience with almost every handgun round (as my Dad would say, "kid, I know more about that than I ever wanted to know..." ). I will admit though that pistol cartridge carbines are interesting - very interesting...

Where should I go to actually learn a bit about rifle ammo that falls between 7.62 and 5.56? Any help appreciated. I'm not a hunter at all (except for two legged critters...).

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Eta autocorrect nosler online load data does a good job showing you velocity, weights, etc, of all the cartridges, if you mean in diameter, that's easy, if you mean in firepower, more fun, and in length= the most fun, I'm with @LoonWulf, start a thread for us nerds to collaborate on lol!

Armored farmer said:

It was a beaver who's eyes were bigger than his jaws!

Wow. I see that I neglected to mention that the rifle is a ruger American ranch in 7.62x39. I bought it because I could not like my sks's's(two). And had a bunch of ammo.
This has a 3x9BDC nikon, and is my beater atv, tractor, combine, truck gun.

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I think I asked before but cannot remember so please pardon my memory, but what kind of accuracy do you get?

TarDevil said:

What are the advantages over, say, Ruger American Ranch?

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As mentioned the Tikka is a nicer rifle out of the box, particularly the trigger, action, and barrel. Tikka is owned by SAKO and they use the same barrels off of the same hammer forging machines, and SAKO has been at the hammer forged barrel business for a long time now, quite a bit longer than Ruger. SAKO/Tikka hammer forged barrels have a well deserved reputation for being very very good.

Additionally the Tikka is going to be available in considerably more powerful cartridges than the Ruger American Ranch, whether you need or want that is up to you.

What is your budget if you don't mind us asking? That might help narrow it down a bit.

I've been following the thread. Haven't seen anything to change my recommendation of a lever action in .44 mag/special. Pair it with a nice revolver and enjoy.

Buzznrose said:

I think I asked before but cannot remember so please pardon my memory, but what kind of accuracy do you get?

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Oooooh.....
I'm gonna say it would be a good day for me to get moa......but...
I have saved my targets in my filing cabinet .

So
It will shoot moa. (Or close)
This is the cleanest target I have...shot by #1 son. 5 shots at 170 yds. 1 inch tape.



My other target was a compilation of yardages.
The 100yd group was about an inch.

Armored farmer said:

Oooooh.....
I'm gonna say it would be a good day for me to get moa......but...
I have saved my targets in my filing cabinet .

So
It will shoot moa. (Or close)
This is the cleanest target I have...shot by #1 son. 5 shots at 170 yds. 1 inch tape.View attachment 940309



My other target was a compilation of yardages.
The 100yd group was about an inch.

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All with wolf? That's pretty good! I've never had a gun that would scratch moa with any wolf ammo.

Meh...
It shoots wolf pretty well. My lgs stocks wolf so I've been shooting it.
I think it shoots good...but maybe some rifleman might wrinkle their nose.
You know I'm a shotgunner.

Armored farmer said:

Meh...
It shoots wolf pretty well. My lgs stocks wolf so I've been shooting it.
I think it shoots good...but maybe some rifleman might wrinkle their nose.
You know I'm a shotgunner.

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1-1.5" is plenty for most work. He'll my 7mag would barely hold 2" at 100, and it STILL killed everything i pointed it at.
I actually shoot a decent amount of wolf, but since none of my guns shoot it that well, so it's mostly range fodder.

Armored farmer said:

Oooooh.....
I'm gonna say it would be a good day for me to get moa......but...
I have saved my targets in my filing cabinet .

So
It will shoot moa. (Or close)
This is the cleanest target I have...shot by #1 son. 5 shots at 170 yds. 1 inch tape.View attachment 940309



My other target was a compilation of yardages.
The 100yd group was about an inch.

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Very nice! Gets the job done with that accuracy I’m sure!

All my CF rifles are bolt guns. Home defense is mostly handled by a short-barreled, semi-auto 12 gauge and handguns. All varmint/larger game rifles are scoped and either .223, .243 Win or .270 Win. My bird guns are 20 gauge O/Us, but have used my 21" Rem 1100 12 ga. semi-auto with good results, but for road-hunting grouse in Northern Maine, I prefer O/Us because we need to jump-out, load-up quickly, and unload often...easily/safely. We also do a lot of walking and a light, O/U 20 gauge is nicer to carry.

My favorite cartridge for smaller pests and coyotes around the house and fields is a .17 HMR. I like it because I don't have to handload and feel free to plink a bit on the half-mile walk to the blueberry fields down back. When sitting on my little bench, I sometimes shoot at various spots on the boulders which were left by the friendly iceberg that visited a few thousand years ago...careful to not shoot where the bullet could possibly ricochet and hurt something or someone.

According to the original post... "but I want a long gun that will hunt (deer and pigs, medium to short range) and be a decent SD rifle."

I think almost any medium to short range rifle will fit the bill for a decent SD rifle, he already has hand guns and shotguns. In later post the OP said he hopes to shoot this gun a lot, not once has he mentioned reloading, so I would think common calibers at reasonable prices are the way to go.

While not my thing a 44 mag Lever gun, as a one gun option, makes the most sense to me.

This being said when faced with the same dilemma I ended up with multiple rifles/carbines and there will be more to come.

For home defense carbines/truck guns I like semiautomatic pistol caliber carbines they are a blast to shoot so practice is easy and cheap. I realize there are a lot of different opinion on this.

An AR in 223 is also cheap to shoot and covers a lot of bases. It does get boring just shooting paper. Pistol caliber carbines for me are more enjoyable on steel at SD ranges. The AR has a place and is here to stay.

American ranch in 350 legend, I chose this over a lever gun in 357 mag. because I wanted to run it suppressed and man does it shine in this role, this is the reason I went bolt gun vs AR platform. Great for deer or pigs. With cheap white box 145 gr winchester rounds it is 1.5 MOA so range time if enjoyable too. 20 round magazines are available and reliable too.

I recently ordered a Tikka in 30-06 to cover the medium to long range gun larger game role. I hope to have it next week.

I don't think you would be wrong to go with the 44 lever gun, certainly meets you criteria.

Lots of good suggestions already; I don't have a lot to add that hasn't been mentioned.

I guess my question would be how the Mini 30 does with steel cased ammo. Because to me that is most of the appeal of the caliber.

If the gun is to be shot even semi-regularly and you don't reload, I like 7.26x39 for it's usual price, availability and ability to buy in bulk. Although the .30-30 is similar ballistically, I don't think I would try to plink with it the same way.


If this doesn't matter too much, then a lot of things will work and it all is going to cost about the same dollar per round (more or less) for factory ammo. You could even do .45 Colt if you wanted, I suppose...

adcoch1 said:

This is me... I have built so many ars I can't count, but wood and steel is what moves me... A mini in 350 legend would be superb..

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Likewise. There's something about walnut and blued steel that just makes me happy. Reminds me of my grandpa.

I've owned a few Mini 14s over the years. I never was able to hold onto them. I ended up trading them off towards something else or selling them.

They're nice guns but one thing always drove me bonkers. I wished they'd take regular AR mags. I have a million of those and it'd be great to be able to use them. I suppose the extra Mini 14 mags are a cash cow for Ruger though and they'd never change the design. (And if they did it would introduce confusion.)

I just wish some company out there would start building a really nice, accurate, dependable classically styled 223 that uses the mags we all have!

gregp74 said:

just wish some company out there would start building a really nice, accurate, dependable classically styled 223 that uses the mags we all have!

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While practical, and a really useful idea for a lot of folks, AR mags would kill any interest I'd have in the gun. AR mags by nature are long, so there wouldn't be any flush fit options unless specifically designed for the few gun that use an ar mag, and have a shorter mag well. The biggest reason I didn't buy an American in 6.5 grendle is because it uses AR mags......
That maybe one of the personal quirks that only matters to me tho.

LoonWulf said:

While practical, and a really useful idea for a lot of folks, AR mags would kill any interest I'd have in the gun. AR mags by nature are long, so there wouldn't be any flush fit options unless specifically designed for the few gun that use an ar mag, and have a shorter mag well. The biggest reason I didn't buy an American in 6.5 grendle is because it uses AR mags......
That maybe one of the personal quirks that only matters to me tho.

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You know you can get 5 and 10 round AR mags?????

Cannibul said:

You know you can get 5 and 10 round AR mags?????

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5s are the same length as the 10s, and all need to be long enough to stick out of an ARs mag well. The Minis, sks, and most "sporting" semis have flush fit, or very close to it, magazine options.

LoonWulf said:

While practical, and a really useful idea for a lot of folks, AR mags would kill any interest I'd have in the gun. AR mags by nature are long, so there wouldn't be any flush fit options unless specifically designed for the few gun that use an ar mag, and have a shorter mag well. The biggest reason I didn't buy an American in 6.5 grendle is because it uses AR mags......
That maybe one of the personal quirks that only matters to me tho.

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That's a very good point. I hadn't thought about them sticking out.

gregp74 said:

That's a very good point. I hadn't thought about them sticking out.

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LoonWulf said:

While practical, and a really useful idea for a lot of folks, AR mags would kill any interest I'd have in the gun. AR mags by nature are long, so there wouldn't be any flush fit options unless specifically designed for the few gun that use an ar mag, and have a shorter mag well. The biggest reason I didn't buy an American in 6.5 grendle is because it uses AR mags......
That maybe one of the personal quirks that only matters to me tho.

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Come to think of it, it wouldn't have to be a two way street. The catch on AR mags is pretty high up. If shorter mags were made that used the same upper geometry they just wouldn't work in ARs because they wouldn't reach out of the mag well. Full size mags AR mags could still be used in a gun designed for shorter ones though.

Ok, my engineering brain needs to go to bed. I'm just being silly at this point.

Aside from being common I guess I don’t see a huge advantage in running AR mags in a bolt gun.

While I’m a big fan of the AR/M4 platform, the biggest limiting factor to increasing the practical capabilities of the AR-15 from a ballistic standpoint is designing cartridges around the limited dimensions of the magazines. It’s a compromise I’m willing to put up with for the ubiquity, reliability, and utility of the platform particularly in 5.56 NATO, but doesn’t make as much sense for a bolt action in my opinion. For the following reasons (others needs may vary):

1.) If I’m running a bolt gun it’s because:

a: I want or need significantly more ballistic capability in a reasonably sized rifle than is possible with a semi-auto. For example a hunting rifle that can sling heavy bullets at high speeds that doesn’t weight 10lbs before optics and a sling get mounted. Also in this category would be something like a scout rifle in .308 Win, again more powerful than a 5.56 or any cartridges accommodated by that magazine; without taking on the weight and expense of an AR-10/SR-25.

b: I want or need as much precision as possible in a rifle as easy to shoot well as possible for an accuracy oriented use.

In neither case do I really need or want the dimensional limitations of an AR-15 magazine. Besides the AICS mag is plentiful and cheap as made by MagPul if I want a detachable magazine that is common. Or spend a few more dollars on an AI AX magazine if your receiver is cut for them.

For those looking for reasonably light, very accurate, feature rich bolt guns with nice flush fitting detachable magazines (includes 2 of them!) look at the Steyr Scout. Prices have come way down from the old days.

gregp74 said:

Come to think of it, it wouldn't have to be a two way street. The catch on AR mags is pretty high up. If shorter mags were made that used the same upper geometry they just wouldn't work in ARs because they wouldn't reach out of the mag well. Full size mags AR mags could still be used in a gun designed for shorter ones though.

Ok, my engineering brain needs to go to bed. I'm just being silly at this point.

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That's very true....ya know I've never tried to shorten an AR mag....and I've got a few........will play with that idea a bit.

Coal Dragger said:

For those looking for reasonably light, very accurate, feature rich bolt guns with nice flush fitting detachable magazines (includes 2 of them!) look at the Steyr Scout. Prices have come way down from the old days.

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My dad was enamored with the scout when they first came out, I may actually buy him one, as he's been wanting a bolt gun.

Besides the relatively high cost (not really that bad at 1600-1800ish) it would be a great utility rifle.

I was actually thinking of a more classically styled semi auto not a bolt gun, but same thing applies.

(For my bolt actions, I usually just go with internal mags)

Why not a marlin 444 lever? It'll handle anything in North America. Can shoot 44mags for self-defense.

Meeks36 said:

Why not a marlin 444 lever? It'll handle anything in North America. Can shoot 44mags for self-defense.

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Please don’t pass this bad advice around in polite company.

The 444marlin has a slight taper and the case body at the base is larger than that of the 44mag, such the case is not fully supported. Many folks have done this, and feeding has occasionally been reliable, but many folks have also experienced split and bulged cases which can jam the rifle (leveractions already notorious for lacking mechanical advantage for primary extraction).

If you want to assume your own risks and misuse your own 444 Marlin, that’s your prerogative. But please don’t pass unsafe advice to others who might not be fully aware of its foolishness.