Sorry, but another dumb AR question

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Elkins45

Elkins45

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From an argument elsewhere regarding the old “once a rifle, always a rifle” in regard to AR lower receivers.
Yawn.

I wasn’t answering the OP’s question and it doesn’t change your ignorance on the subject matter, either.

Manufacturers can and do actively manufacture receivers as rifles, pistols and receivers. They ARE sold to consumers as rifles, pistols or receivers.
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This person says they are a manufacturer of military weapons and that an ATF inspector was sitting in his office and confirmed this. He is asserting that manufacturer are designating bare receivers as rifles and/or pistols rather than as receivers, and that they are shipped to FFLs and sold under those three different designations on 4473 forms.

He said that because they are military makers they are required to designate them. OK, fine, I plead complete ignorance of the rules for military makers, but I find it suspect that FFLs somewhere have a box full of bare AR receivers they are supposed to designate as rifles or as pistols when they sell them.

Am I as ignorant as this person is telling me I am?
 
An uncorroborated, unverifiable, supposed conversation between unknown people -- why would that anecdote have any credibility?

Okay, let's forget about the fairy tales.

If anyone has any verifiable, documented information about business practices related to the distribution and retail selling of AR receivers, by all means post. If it's just speculation and guesswork, don't bother.
 
Elkins45 said:
From an argument elsewhere regarding the old “once a rifle, always a rifle” in regard to AR lower receivers.

This person says they are a manufacturer of military weapons and that an ATF inspector was sitting in his office and confirmed this.
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There are FFL's still asking how to log a frame or receiver into their bound book. Just because some nitwit bought an 07FFL doesn't imbue him with knowledge.
ATF makes it damn clear that he's wrong in the instructions to Question 16 Type of Firearm.




He is asserting that manufacturer are designating bare receivers as rifles and/or pistols rather than as receivers, and that they are shipped to FFLs and sold under those three different designations on 4473 forms.
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He may be doing that....based on pure ignorance, but others are not. Federal law and ATF regulations define what is a rifle, pistol, revolver, frame receiver, etc......not the manufacturer.

He said that because they are military makers they are required to designate them.
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He's dumber than a bag of hammers. Whether a manufacturer makes firearms for the military doesn't change federal law. Who is this Einstein?:scrutiny:



OK, fine, I plead complete ignorance of the rules for military makers, but I find it suspect that FFLs somewhere have a box full of bare AR receivers they are supposed to designate as rifles or as pistols when they sell them.
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In 2008, ATF came out with a new Form 4473, the previous version allowed for three choices: Handgun/Long Gun/Both. Despite a firearm frame or receiver being none of those, dealers would ask the customer what type of firearm they intended to build....and checked the appropriate box. It DID NOT "register" that receiver or frame as any particular type of firearm. A five minute read of the instructions on the 4473 makes it clear as to how a frame or receiver is recorded.

Am I as ignorant as this person is telling me I am?
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No, he's the dummy and its doubtful he every made a single firearm for any military.
 
Frank Ettin said:
An uncorroborated, unverifiable, supposed conversation between unknown people -- why would that anecdote have any credibility?

Okay, let's forget about the fairy tales.

If anyone has any verifiable, documented information about business practices related to the distribution and retail selling of AR receivers, by all means post. If it's just speculation and guesswork, don't bother.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I suppose it wasn't clear that I am one of the parties to the conversation. I'm being told that I don't understand the rules regarding what makes an AR be a rifle or a pistol. I'm fairly confident I do but I wanted to run it by the people here who are familiar with the law.
 
Good and correct information given so far.

As far as the "once a rifle always a rifle" that needs to be corrected. It is: Built as a rifle first then always a rifle.

A receiver is just that - a receiver and should be marked as such on the 4473. Even complete lowers that have a stock attached is still just a receiver until an upper is attached. What type of upper you install FIRST determines what it is.

Example - you can buy a complete lower with shoulder stock (that has never had an upper attached) and build a pistol with it. Of course you must remove the shoulder stock first before attaching an upper with a barrel less than 16" OAL. As long as you have a legal use for the removed stock or sell it, you are good to go. I don't suggest only having an AR pistol in your possession AND a stock laying around.

The ATF is actually quite clear on this.
 
12Bravo20 said:
Good and correct information given so far.

As far as the "once a rifle always a rifle" that needs to be corrected. It is: Built as a rifle first then always a rifle.

A receiver is just that - a receiver and should be marked as such on the 4473. Even complete lowers that have a stock attached is still just a receiver until an upper is attached. What type of upper you install FIRST determines what it is.

Example - you can buy a complete lower with shoulder stock (that has never had an upper attached) and build a pistol with it. Of course you must remove the shoulder stock first before attaching an upper with a barrel less than 16" OAL. As long as you have a legal use for the removed stock or sell it, you are good to go. I don't suggest only having an AR pistol in your possession AND a stock laying around.

The ATF is actually quite clear on this.
Click to expand...
Yep.

There's a guy on reddit who thinks I'm an idiot because I said the same.
 
If they are manufacturing AR receivers for the military they would be machine gun receivers and are not transferable to civilians, so they would be machine guns.

SC45-70
 
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