Slingshot that slide.

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I have a long history of pulling levers that say “do not pull” and pushing buttons that say “do not push”. I’m still alive and have better understanding for it.

I used to own a Kahr P9 and never once used the slide release lever. I have been trained almost to a fault to be skeptical of any and all manufacturers recommendations as being best practice. Rarely are they ever outright bad advice but I do believe (and this will sound arrogant) the recommendations are made for the benefit of folks who may not be as knowledgeable in a particular product.

Im not one of those people who when told specifically not to do something, will compulsively go out and do it. I will, from then on, try to figure out why which then may or may not culminate in me trying it.

There is the recommended ways of doing things or the way the “books” say to do it and then there are the real world ways or the more efficient ways of doing things. The ways that in some instances, it takes someone with a bit of experience to understand and properly execute.

A non-gun related example. Taps vs. thread chasers in cleaning out threaded holes. The “books” tell you to use a thread chaser. I have used them with mixed success. I have destroyed them completely in certain circumstances. Taps tend to work every time even though this is not their intended purpose. Intended purpose or not, they are a better design for the task at hand. The detractors will say it takes away from the integrity of the threaded hole because it removes a small amount of material. I will agree with this but say the amount of material it removes is inconsequential. If the hole is too far gone to restore with a thread cleaning method you are probably going to figure it out in the process of employing one or the other of these methods anyway. In the end both purpose built thread chasers and taps have a role to play in thread chasing.

Conventional wisdom, book smarts, and manufacturers suggestions should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Which gun oil or cleaning solvent is best?
 
This has been a very enlightening discussion. Like I stated in the beginning just my practice. I can see we all look at things in our own light. Doesn’t make it wrong or right. There are more than 2 ways to skin a cat. Makes for a lively discussion.
 
I'd like for hose commenting about "junky guns" and blowback pistols to, if they ever are in the SA TX area, take a range trip with me where I'll bring my Astra 600 in 9X19mm (straight blowback) along with my Manurhin P1 (aluminum frame P38 delayed blowback) and their polymer framed 9X19mm handgun of choice and shoot all 3 of them to have firsthand experience not only with muzzle flip differences all firing the same load 9X19mm ammunition but also differences in use of the slide release vs racking the slides on those 3 designs. Then I'll pull out my Astra 1921 in 9mm Largo along with some 9mm Largo ammunition to do the same.

Note all the handguns I've listed were designed for military use and as far as mechanical reliability when cared for and serviced properly none have a reputation for poor performance in those areas firing the ammunition they were designed to fire. IME there's a difference in "feel" when firing as well as slide operation and I question if the comments about "blowback" designs have experience with a true straight blowback design 9X19mm semiautomatic handgun.

FWIW I'd never previously heard of "slingshot" the slide it was always "cycle the action" or "rack the slide" but I'm sure that's just due to who I shot & trained with.

Also FWIW I'm an engineer, but I don't believe that personally carries any specific weight without being an engineer who designed the handgun WRT commenting on a particular handgun's slide stop design, use, and robustness (to use a very non-technical but descriptive term) much less a blanket statement on same.
 
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I’m curious if there are people at the pistol range looking out the corner of their eyes at everyone else to see who is doing it “wrong”.

....and there is never a mirror around.
 
Manurhin P1 (aluminum frame P38 delayed blowback)

I'm an engineer but not a mechanical engineer, but I still don't consider a P1 "delayed blowback" although I have also seen the term applied to the Beretta M92 with similar locking system. Wasn't it our own MTP who converted one to true blowback?
 
also set a full beer in the crook of your elbow.
actually, the beer is set just in front of your shoulder. the book and beer is harder to lift, but not much harder. that is the point i'm trying to make.

murf
 
On a related subject of slide releasing...

There are people who also say when you chamber the first round, to "ride the slide".

There are people who also say never release the slide on an empty magazine.

I say operate the gun appropriately. It's designed to operate normally under very harsh operating characteristics and off you really have to "baby" it, I submit there are serious problems with it which should give you cause for concern.

I'm all about taking care of your tools... and a firearm is exactly that...a tool.

Given the ratio of times you manually baby slide operation in chambering a round to the number of times that slide otherwise cycles during normal operation throughout its decades long life and tens of thousands of rounds, normal operstionsl cyclic stresses would far exceed that of manual operations...regardless of how you operate the slide.

It's a tool...take care of it by all means, but don't be afraid to operate it.
 
There are people who also say when you chamber the first round, to "ride the slide".

There are people who also say never release the slide on an empty magazine.
"Riding the slide" is the one big reason not to manipulate the slide that way, although, its not really a "slingshot" either.


I normally agree about not letting the slide snap forward on an empty chamber too, but have come to actually require it now when buying a used auto.

I bought a Browning High Power earlier this year that the previous owner had "improved" the trigger on. When I bought it, I considered it bad form to drop the slide on an empty chamber, but now wish I had.

First time out with the gun, I popped a loaded mag in, and dropped the slide with the slide release, and the gun proceeded to fire a round into the ground about 6" in front of me, and the hammer immediately followed the slide down.

Dumb **** that I am, I thumbed the hammer back and the next pull of the trigger gave me a 4-5 round burst. And that was that.

When I got home and cleaned the gun, and dropped the slide on an empty chamber, the hammer followed pretty much every time. If I had done that in the shop, Id have known right away something was up, and would have had some, and least, more informed choices to make and maybe bargain with.

Turned out, whoever had it before, thought they were a gunsmith and knew how to tune a HP trigger. Lucky for me, it was a somewhat cheap (HP parts are salty!) and easy fix.

Whoever traded that gun in needs a good boot in the ass, as it was unsafe as it was, and they had to know it. It did show me that a simple dropping of the slide on an empty chamber, will now be part of any inspection I do with that type of gun, and especially if the trigger feels stupid light.
 
I'm an engineer but not a mechanical engineer, but I still don't consider a P1 "delayed blowback" although I have also seen the term applied to the Beretta M92 with similar locking system. Wasn't it our own MTP who converted one to true blowback?
I'm a Chemical Engineer but I understand straight blowback (simple blowback) vs delayed blowback (sometimes referred to as retarded blowback but that'san adjectiveruled unkind in today's lexicon). I don't own any Beretta products so I can't speak on those, but I own Astra 600, Asyra 1921 / 400, and Manurhin P1 (as mentioned previously variant of Wather P38). Look under "Design" on these three handguns and perhaps the section about how the Astra 600 & 400 work vs the Wather P38 (or even P08 Luger with toggle) will light a bulb for you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(firearms)

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/culture/gun-automatics-blowback-operation-maxim-popenker/

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/sho...king-systems-delayed-blowback-maxim-popenker/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_600

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_400

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P38
 
The question is not whether I know what a blowback action is. (I do.)

I find no reference to the P38 as "delayed blowback" in any of those articles.
The Wiki piece has a lot of mention of the "locking block."
 
And also the term "locked breech? - which results in "retarded blowback".

While the P38 has two recoil springs, the Astra 600 & Astra 400 each only have one. But the spring constants are quite different. We explored formal definition spring constants in high school when & where I went to school.

https://www.jamesspring.com/news/spring-constant/

To hopefully make this 100% clear the Astra 600 & 400 / Model 1921 are not locked breech designs, the P38 and its P1 copy are locked breech designs. There's a multitude of terms available to describe these differences.
 
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Not in my book(s) or brain but have at it.

Spring constant is pretty foreign to the gun spring consumer market. I haven't needed it since my classes in Engineering Mechanics. Maybe gun designers use it. I wonder if Mr Wolff has an equation for his "variable" springs.
 
As a lefty, I find releasing the slide stop with my trigger finger is quite effective, and considering most of my handguns are steel, I would consider myself lucky if I were ever able to shoot enough to wear out a slide release on just one 1911 or a Third Gen S&W. That said, it seems like there are fans of both methods, so YMMV.
 
Every once in a while a disagreeable match director will put up an IDPA stage that gets you into a reload whilst shooting weak hand. Most people change hands to reload, change back to resume shooting. I can do a weak hand reload but that is one occasion that I will yank the slide instead of punching the slide stop.
 
For years I used the slide release on my 1911’s. Then I bought a couple Glocks and used the slide release to release the slide. Then I was told that I should slingshot or grab the slide, pull it back then release it to load the first round in the chamber. Then a guy that was a Glock Armorer for a major police department up north told me I didn’t need to do that and using the slide release is fine.

I will continue to pull the slide back and release it because that is what I like to do now. I am confident that if my non-shooting hand gets injured that hitting the slide release to charge the gun will be fine. But I will continue to “slingshot” my slides. It’s what I prefer.
 
I wish all my pistols just did not have a slide lock. Especially small Pocket guns and Micro 9mm's. If anything, make them small or recessed. I sling shot every pistol I own. I have heard the pro's and con's for years. I know what is best for me, and really could care less if someone wants to use the Slide lock to release. Each to his own.
 
Not in my book(s) or brain but have at it.

Spring constant is pretty foreign to the gun spring consumer market. I haven't needed it since my classes in Engineering Mechanics. Maybe gun designers use it. I wonder if Mr Wolff has an equation for his "variable" springs.
If not it ought to be easy to obtain unless it'ssomethingthat cannot exist by definition such as a single coefficient of friction for a pulley as an example. Both static "breakaway" friction and dynamic "rolling" friction are a function of load on a pulley. I had a college physics instructor pull that one on all of us in his class in 1981, I was the first one to bring up this was impossible by definition while we were all taking all sorts of measurements and performing all sorts of calculations that afternoon. I hoped that using a quantitative description might succeed where the Wikipedia articles seemed to not succeed in assisting you.

The Astra 600 and 400 / 1921 do not fire from a "locked breech", which requires significantly stouter recoil spring, for more subjectove colloquial term, vs the twin (redundant) recoil springs used in the P38 / P1. This is unusual in handguns chambered for 9X19mm and similar or greater energy. Even with the significantly greater recoil spring tension, the slide release on both my Astra 600 and Model 1921 still functions and doesn't exhibit signs of excessive wear IMO on either handgun.

Not sure you picked this up from the links I presented for your use on the Astra 400 and Astra 600 so I'll paste up the pertinent information WRT slide release and forces involved which was why I posted about them in this thread. You appear to have looked at the link for the P38 but there's more than that involved in my posts in this thread which is why I posted more than one link for you. Take your time.

Astra 400 / 1921

"The Astra 400 was designed to be safe to fire with a simple blowback action unaided by any breech-locking devices.[5] This is only possible with a heavy slide and strong recoil spring."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_400

Astra 600

"Modeled off the Astra 400, the Astra 600 had a similar design and internal mechanism to its predecessor. The Model 600 had a hammerless design and fired with an unlocked breech, blowback mechanism. It had an unusually strong recoil spring that caused a stiff trigger pull.[6] The strong spring could make it difficult for individuals with weak hands to retract the slide making disassembly and cleaning difficult."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_600

I hope that by the time you work through all that information it's more clear for you, including the links that go into detail regarding straight blowback design firearms and delayed blowback design firearms generally. The P38 / P1 is just one of many firearms that employs a delayed blowback design and there are different mechanical designs that obtain locked breech function for delayed blowback design. Such as:

Tokarev TT-33 (I also own one of these kinda contemporary to the same era as the Astra 400 / 1921 and Astra 600)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_pistol

Czech CZ-52 (designed to use the same cartridge as Tokarev TT-33 also locked breech design but significantly different in mechanical detail)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_52

Of course there are materials that go into significantly more detail on all this but these should be sufficient to obtain a grasp of the fundamentals.
 
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I'm not arguing the Astras. They are well known plain blowbacks. (Look up the postwar Astra 4000 Falcon for some interesting fine points on heavy blowbacks.)

The CZ 52 is a roller delayed blowback, no controversy.

But I'm not calling a locked breech P38 any form of blowback and I don't care what you or Beretta call it.
 
I'm not arguing the Astras. They are well known plain blowbacks. (Look up the postwar Astra 4000 Falcon for some interesting fine points on heavy blowbacks.)

The CZ 52 is a roller delayed blowback, no controversy.

But I'm not calling a locked breech P38 any form of blowback and I don't care what you or Beretta call it.
I certainly don't care, and I doubt Beretta does. If you personally ever "slingshot" a slide on an Astra 400 or Astra 600 and a Walther P38, you could empirically experience what I, Wikipedia, and many others recognize as "delayed blowback" vs "staight blowback" design & construction. This goes back to, well, 1938 for the P38, 1921 for the Astra 400 / 1921, and 1944 for the Astra 600 all well before I was born. Maybe you'll find a Walther document on the delayed blowback design of the P38 and have someone translate it for you but I doubt that would make any difference in your choice.

I'd say you refused to click on the link on the Wikipedia page for the P38 that would have taken you here deliberately.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked_breech

There's recognition by me that any method that delays or retards the action opening until after the bullet exits the muzzle requires a significantly less stout recoil spring vs straight blowback with the same cartridge energy much less same cartrige no matter how pedantic anyone chooses to be. If you had clicked on that link you'd have seen Wikipedia doesn't agree with me but your desire to limit your exposure to anything you can't find in your brain or you think doesn't appear in your books prevented this. And probably a whole lot more. Your choice as you stressed.

Not too surprising I suppose.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/speed-of-chemical-propellants.868474/#post-11502377

I wasn't the one to bring Beretta into this thread, you were - remember? I still haven't seen what your discussion about Beretta has to do with straight blowback vs other designs especially WRT "slingshot a slide".
 
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You mean the Wiki that shows a picture of the Walther "short recoil lock" as an example under the "Locked Breech" heading, before it mentions blowback?

I mentioned Beretta because it has the same type locking block as Walther and somebody in their advertising agency called it delayed blowback. I have not seen it said elsewhere until this thread.
 
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