Scope magnification question

I6turbo said:

Very good question, WrongHanded.

IME, about 95% of shooters (including one that might ask the original question) would need their SHOOTING SKILLS magnified about 4x to easily - and humanely - shoot deer at 600 yards.

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I think that's what WrongHanded was slyly getting at with his post!

IF you were practiced/skilled enough to make 600 yard shots on game, you wouldn't be asking the OPs original question........

Chuck R. said:

I think that's what WrongHanded was slyly getting at with his post!

IF you were practiced/skilled enough to make 600 yard shots on game, you wouldn't be asking the OPs original question........

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Yup!

For the record, I've never shot past 400 yards. But considering that ballistic calculators aren't any better than the data entered into them, and also considering what even a 10 mph crosswind can do, shooting game at even that distance is something that should be practiced before hand.

But perhaps, even if the OP hasn't shot 600 yards successfully yet, he intends to learn to do so, and would like some input on scope requirements for such a task. On the other hand, more trigger time at say 300 yards would likely give the OP a better idea of what his preference might be regarding magnification at 600 yards. Because it's double the distance.

ETA: I somehow managed to miss some of the OPs follow up posts when I wrote this. I could swear they didn't show up earlier. Oh well.

you'll just piss me off.

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Consider yourself PO'd.

For those of you who replied more technically, I admire your restraint.
But I wouldn't enable such a high probability of unethical wounding...
.... much less the attitude that produced it.

Tucker25 said:

I am going to practice, but i didnt yet know how big of a scope i need.

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Yes
You will need to practice a couple of things,
Example:
A 308 at 600 yards will require 104 inch’s of holdover , practice that scenario for whatever caliber you choose or do the math and dial your tactical turret on the suggested 24 x scope with ranging reticle and don’t forget to practice incline shooting solutions as rarely are shots flat ground.
Practice humping a twenty pound pack, ten pound rifle while dragging a one hundred pound buck/ruck sack through the brush for six football fields.

You will never shoot a 600 yd deer "easily".

I have a rifle that i have scored hits on a 14" diamond at 800m with.
I can score 8/10 at 600m on the same target.
I can centerpunch an 8" gong all day at 400m.

My current optic is a 3-15x FFP.

I would not attempt a shot past about 500m on an animal i hope to humanely kill.

I also have a friend who dropped a bull elk in Idaho 2 years ago, lasered at 903yds. One shot. He was using a 2.5-10x FFP.

The magnification is less important than the image clarity and repeatability. I'm enough of a fudd to feel that the 1x/100yd rule of thumb is adequate. More can be nice, but as others have pointed out, the higher the magnification, the more critical glass quality and construction become.

Tucker25 said:

I am going to practice, but i didnt yet know how big of a scope i need.

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In all honesty what you need is a top tier scope with the best optical quality money can buy. A 3X9 power scope is all you really need but do not go cheap. Spend the money on the glass and not on all the things that drive the price up and has nothing to do with glass. Swaroski comes to mind, IOR and others not listed.

My "open country" hunting scopes are ( I don't do the LR hunting thing):

2.2-9x42 Swarovski
2.2-12x42 Leupold VX6HD
4.5-14x40 Leupold VX3

All have enough magnification to hit an 8" target at 600 yards. I've done it with a 1-6x24 sitting on my 3Gun carbine.

My scopes that I regularly shoot distance with with have external adjustable turrets, parallax adjustment, 30-34mm tubes and 50mm + objectives with MIL reticles:

Leupold MK4 6.5-20x50
Vortex Razor 5-20x50 Gen 1
Vortex PST 4-16X50

They and their mounts are heavy and they sit on heavy rifles.

Lots of guns can hit an 8" plate at 600, the question is how many shots to do it, and how consistently. IMHO IF you want to do 600 regularly (easily) for 1st rd hits, you start getting into specialized equipment; optic, rifle, ballistic app, and something to get your conditions (Temp, pressure, humidity) and elevation delta between shooter & TGT.

Even with all of the above, there's the wind between shooter & TGT to contend with and for that there's no real technical solution. My Kestrel for example will give me wind at shooter location, but 600 is a ways and the wind can be very different from shooter to tgt. There's no fix other than practice, reading the wind is part science and art. We did it as a team with a spotter.

During OEF my organization did a project targeted towards company grade commanders in conjunction with the AMU and Sniper school at Benning for the employment of snipers and DMRs. One of the chapters was an honest assessment of the 1st round hit probability at distances on a man sized tgt. Those were realistic probabilities that an awful lot of shooters on forums seem to be able to exceed.

Not trying to piss you off but what magnification I would need to hit a target isn’t going to help you much.

The same target at the same distance is viewed differently with different magnifications but still hit the same way, aiming the firearm at it.





So, what deer are we talking about?



How big is the kill zone? Assuming killing them is the goal and not just shooting them. Now that we know the diameter of the kill zone we just need to know what magnification you need to keep all of your shots inside that diameter at 600 yards and we will have the answer.

BTW, I just bought a 3-9 Meopta "Instinct" Scope from Cabellas for $300 that is amazingly bright, has range finding stadia lines and is compact 40mm objective. I have a slew of scopes I could have chosen , up to huge optics and powers and Nightforce, Vortex, Zeiss and Leupold ect. but am putting the 3-9 on my 25-06 straight pull Mauser M96 as a long range antelope and deer gun and coyote all around carry rifle because of weight ect. I have no doubt at 9x with the ranging stadia calibrated at 600 yards for 110 grain ELDX at 3000 FPS from a good rest will take an antelope if nicely hit. It won't be because I can't see them clear enough if I don't connect !

Chuck R. said:

IF you were practiced/skilled enough to make 600 yard shots on game, you wouldn't be asking the OPs original question........

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This is probably a fair claim, even if that particular bite of “truth sandwich” might piss off some people who need to eat it.

It doesn’t take much to learn how to shoot well enough at 600yrds to be huntable. But without a doubt, anyone who has undertaken the practice to get there will not only know what they need to do it, they’ll even further understand what they WANT...

Kleanbore said:

Magnification is probably the least important variable, once the rifle and load have been selected.

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I like it, iron sights it is.

I'll say 6x or more, but windage, elevation and extensive knowledge of your ammunition is needed to attempt a shot like that. My longest shot with Remington 180 grain Core-lock factory ammo in a Remington 700, 30.06 sited in for 125 yds and shooting at 9x for 345 yards took 5 shots. 30 years ago I estimated my bullet would drop 13 inches. I was off by 5 inches down or more and almost 24 inches to the left of center. You see I was aiming across the back of the deer in the upper lung area. I hit the deer in the lower neck near the brisket. I took out an artery and it was lucky hit. And I thought I knew what I was doing. I don't think I would try that shot again today.

jmorris said:

I like it, iron sights it is.

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Hey, you saw "Quigley Down Under," right? Lol

I just made a trip to CMP Talladega and was humbled on the difference between 300 and 600 with light lead, I had a 3x9 and I couldn't bring out the X mark at 600, a friend had a 6x24 and turned up I could see it, I was shooting high 10s and Xs at 300 and wasn't on paper (8ft) at 600.
I would get as strong as you could, at least 18 maybe 24, so it would help you detect wind. You will have to practice a lot to be good at that range and have a good rangefinder to predict fall.

If a 12X and bipods works on chucks to 500....................

If you're asking that question you're not familiar enough with distance shooting to make an ethical kill.

Not sure how to put it more eloquently.

I've only shot past 500 once. Distance was 550 I was shooting a savage axis II with 50 gr vmax over a Max charge of blc2 St nearly 3400 fps. Targeted a tree scope weaver kaspa 3-9x40. I hit the tree with 4 out of 5. I had no issue with wind because the wind that was blowing was at 12 oclock.

At the time I was shooting twice a week at 200 yds with 3 different center fire rifles, at least 300 rounds per week. It was a big surprise for me to count 4 hits all were below my aim point between 9 and 24 inches.

Can't wait to try again.

For the past 2 years I've been shooting at 300 meters pinching paper and steel, but I wouldn't risk injuring a game animal past 300 until I can hit at least 90 percent of my shots moa or less.

I shot 600 meters at paper qualification targets, IIRC, either B27 or very similar, with an M16A2 and issue iron sights, and never had one go outside of the 8 ring. Still only finished in the middle of the competition. That was with much younger eyes, and a lot of trigger time on the M16. (mostly A1; the A2's trigger is worse, but the A1 cannot even reliably hit at 600 meters) I'd probably not shoot at a deer at any more than 1/3 of that distance, if for no other reason than where I hunt assuring a safe backstop becomes problematic at about that range.