Actually there is a modern gun chambered in 7.62x25mm

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94045 said:
I was just watching a Paul Harrell Presentation where a 9mm fired out of a Carbine penetrated 3A Body Armor. Given the .357 Sig is going at least as fast out of handgun I wouldn't say it wouldn't.
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NIJ certified armor will specify the bullet and velocity it was tested with.
Some IIIA category armor:

New AR500-brand Hybrid (USA-sourced) soft armor: 357 Sig, 125gr FMJ 1470 fps +/- 30 fps
New Safariland Summit BA-3A00S-SM02F: 357 Sig, 125gr FMJ 1863 fps

The NIJ 0101.06 standard is not a specific level of protection per se, but a method for testing and reporting that should specify whether the armor was new or "conditioned" (simulated wear), the cartridge, bullet weight, bullet type, velocity and the resulting backface deformation.

Because of this, we can expect to see a significant difference in the performance of different IIIA category ballistic panels. But the manufacturer/seller should report the performance to which an independent lab tested it per the NIJ standard.

A lot of Youtube body armor testers are not nearly as rigorous in their testing. I typically see them come up with some donated armor, something that a friend found in the back of their closet, something a retailer sent as a promotional sample, or something they bought cheap on eBay or an online store. They might say it's "IIIA" but again, there's a big difference between different armors in that category.

Tying this back to being relevant to Tokarev ammo, Pro Tech Impac HT soft plates are specified to stop the following special threats:

-- Speer .357 Sig, 125 gr. FMJ FN 3 1470 ± 30 fps
-- Speer .44 Mag, 240 gr. SJHP 1 1430 ± 30 fps
-- Win. 9mm +P+, 127 gr. SXT 3 1250 ± 30 fps
-- Speer .357 Sig, 125 gr. GDHP 3 1375 ± 30 fps
-- Norinco 7.62 X 25 Tokarev, 85 gr. FMJ 3 1530 ± 30 fps
-- FN 5.7 X 28 mm, 28 gr. SS195LF, (Belgium) 3 2086 ± 30 fps (avg.)
-- FN 5.7 X 28 mm, 40 gr SS197 (Blue Tip) 3 1721 ± 30 fps (avg.)

Notice the bullet type is specified as well as the velocity. While the bullet types tested are probably popular for those cartridges, they're not necessarily the ones best suited to penetration. So for this plate, it stopped a flat-nosed 125 grain FMJ Sig at 1470, but a round-nosed FMJ was not tested at any velocity. It stopped an 85 grain FMJ Tokarev at 1530 fps, but one at 1630 fps either penetrated, exceeded allowable backface deformation or was not even tested.
 
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labnoti said:
NIJ certified armor will specify the bullet and velocity it was tested with.
Some IIIA category armor:

New AR500-brand Hybrid (USA-sourced) soft armor: 357 Sig, 125gr FMJ 1470 fps +/- 30 fps
New Safariland Summit BA-3A00S-SM02F: 357 Sig, 125gr FMJ 1863 fps

The NIJ 0101.06 standard is not a specific level of protection per se, but a method for testing and reporting that should specify whether the armor was new or "conditioned" (simulated wear), the cartridge, bullet weight, bullet type, velocity and the resulting backface deformation.

Because of this, we can expect to see a significant difference in the performance of different IIIA category ballistic panels. But the manufacturer/seller should report the performance to which an independent lab tested it per the NIJ standard.

A lot of Youtube body armor testers are not nearly as rigorous in their testing. I typically see them come up with some donated armor, something that a friend found in the back of their closet, something a retailer sent as a promotional sample, or something they bought cheap on eBay or an online store. They might say it's "IIIA" but again, there's a big difference between different armors in that category.

Tying this back to being relevant to Tokarev ammo, Pro Tech Impac HT soft plates are specified to stop the following special threats:

-- Speer .357 Sig, 125 gr. FMJ FN 3 1470 ± 30 fps
-- Speer .44 Mag, 240 gr. SJHP 1 1430 ± 30 fps
-- Win. 9mm +P+, 127 gr. SXT 3 1250 ± 30 fps
-- Speer .357 Sig, 125 gr. GDHP 3 1375 ± 30 fps
-- Norinco 7.62 X 25 Tokarev, 85 gr. FMJ 3 1530 ± 30 fps
-- FN 5.7 X 28 mm, 28 gr. SS195LF, (Belgium) 3 2086 ± 30 fps (avg.)
-- FN 5.7 X 28 mm, 40 gr SS197 (Blue Tip) 3 1721 ± 30 fps (avg.)

Notice the bullet type is specified as well as the velocity. While the bullet types tested are probably popular for those cartridges, they're not necessarily the ones best suited to penetration. So for this plate, it stopped a flat-nosed 125 grain FMJ Sig at 1470, but a round-nosed FMJ was not tested at any velocity. It stopped an 85 grain FMJ Tokarev at 1530 fps, but one at 1630 fps either penetrated, exceeded allowable backface deformation or was not even tested.
Click to expand...

I have to wonder where some of the body armor at smaller police dept come from. I suspect donated armor and low bidder may play a bigger role than best performance.
 
labnoti said:
It stopped an 85 grain FMJ Tokarev at 1530 fps, but one at 1630 fps either penetrated, exceeded allowable backface deformation or was not even tested.
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One of the reasons I value failure tests at least as much as success results in items like body armor.

Todd.
 
94045 said:
I have to wonder where some of the body armor at smaller police dept come from. I suspect donated armor and low bidder may play a bigger role than best performance.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm wondering the same. I'm sure the biggest concern among departments is threats from rifles or short barrel AR's and less of pistols that use obscure bottlenecked calibers.
 
I shot a feral dog at bout 20 yds with my CZ-52 with a old surplus FMJ ammo ... I hit a bit high ,, round hit the spine .. dog went died before it hit the ground. . Looked as if the bullet blew out two or vertebrae .. exit hole was enormous..
Something about a bullet traveling that fast and strike-in bone ....
At one time I was all into the CZ-52 & the cartridge, I ordered JHP ammo online .. can’t recall ..where?
CZ-52 .. you have to replace the brittle firing pin
easy peasy lemon squeezy
 
We had a couple of 226 clones from china in 9mm in my unit armory. The used standard Sig mags. I fired one, and it felt like a regualr 226, but the finish wasn't as nice and there were some tool marks.
 
<*(((>< said:
7.62x25 is a 30cal bullet where as 357sig is a .355cal.

7.62x25 can hit 1,700fps with 85-90 grain bullets
357Sig can hit about the same with 90-100gr billets

The .30cal at similar bullet weight and velocity will be better at penetration. And it would be curious to see what modern bullet technology and loading a would achieve. The main idea for the extra penetration is aimed at barrier and body armor defeating.

But your point is valid the .357sig achieves most of what is desired by the 7.62x25.

Personally, for me I would like to see a new handgun caliber somewhere in between .243-.284 maximizing SD, velocity utilizing a current handgun case. I think something like a 7.62x25 tok or .40 cal necked down. make the grip and magazine of the weapon to be similarly sized to a 10mm handgun, keep the barrel lengths in the 3.5”, 4, 5, 6” range. Would be curious to see how flat, and how much penetration one could achieve and with modern advancements in bullet technology controlled expansion. Try and achieve a little rifle performance magic in a handgun.

The 7.5 FK BRNO is headed in the right direction and would scratch my itch if it ever were mainstreamed, with 100gr @2,000-2,100fps.

View attachment 881987
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Those pistols are gorgeous except for the gaudy grips. Ill take mine with Nils, lol.
 
Have you tried getting x25 ammo? As much as I’m right there with you, getting ammo isn’t the easiest. I’d like to see it come mainstream, that or 38 super get more popular.
 
I was wondering that. Perhaps 10x25?

I looked at some pictures showing the 7.62 compared to the 10 and it appeared quite a bit longer
 
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