30-40 Krag IMR4350 150gr NosPart

CoRifleman · Sep 18, 2020

Thanks Horsey!

@2236
100yds- 1504ftlbs, 1994fps.
150yds- 1335ftlbs, 1881fps

@2270
100yds- 1552ftlbs, 2028fps
150yds- 1379ftlbs, 1912fps

I'm trying to balance what I'm trying to do with safety here. It's easy to get hung up on the tech (velocities, etc), that's why I post - there's guys here that have "been there, done that."

horsey300 said:
I'm not with it enough to try, what's your impact velocity at 150yds with 2236? 2270?
I don't think either load should be ruled out, obvious answer is the most accurate one, but I'm curious here, and I'd not rule out 170gr .30-30 loads for your objective, so a lil extra scoot should be wonderful. I don't get hung up on ft-lbs, bullet construction and impact velocity tend to serve a better purpose. I'd not hotrod the ol gal though, if you want to up the oomph, do so very carefully. Based on .30-30 speeds I'd guesstimate that anything above 15-1600 fps impact will work dandy.

horsey300 · Sep 18, 2020

CoRifleman said:
Thanks Horsey!

@2236
100yds- 1504ftlbs, 1994fps.
150yds- 1335ftlbs, 1881fps

@2270
100yds- 1552ftlbs, 2028fps
150yds- 1379ftlbs, 1912fps

I'm trying to balance what I'm trying to do with safety here. It's easy to get hung up on the tech (velocities, etc), that's why I post - there's guys here that have "been there, done that."

Either of those would give me plenty of confidence, remember that even though your 170 was designed to be softer for .30-30, it's still a partition, so it'll still do some plenty of work for you but also that partition construction can cause higher pressure than a regular cup and core construction bullet, so I'd be careful with trying to hotrod it in the krag, you have 2 nodes with plenty of speed and accuracy, I'd be content really. But because I'm me, I'd also see if a 180 can run a titch faster with less pressure concern and equal accuracy just so I had a backup load.
1.5"@100 yds still equals a tiny group at 200 yds and anywhere in between, and if we must get hung up on energy, then I'll suggest that an elk getting hit with 1300 ft-lbs at 150 yds is unlikely to shrug and chuckle and even less likely if you hit where you are supposed to! I'd run that 170 and bring back a pic heavy resurrection of the results after you tag out. I think if you asked anyone if a .30-30 with a 170 partition was too weak for an elk at 75 yds (ballpark guesstimate, too lazy to look up numbers right now) they'd get you straight quickly, and that's roughly the same ballistic profile you're building I think.
Eta slightly more awake now, please pay attention to what I said about the partition vs pressure I reread a previous post of yours comparing nosler 165 and Hodgdon 150 data, I looked at hodgdon 165 and 180 data and I think you're right where you ought to be. I think pushing 48 or more gr with a heavy construction bullet (partition or Barnes or swift) would be unwise, if you wish to experiment, do so with the softer bullets and then you have a safer baseline to watch for the pressure spikes. Just my two cents, others may not agree, and maybe for great reasons, so their input would be worth paying attention to as well. In a modern action I'd be a little less concerned

CoRifleman · Sep 18, 2020

Appreciate it all. I'll leave the 170 NPart where it is. I don't want to try and get more out of the rifle or cartridge than I should - just not worth it. I was planning on trying a 180 or two as well, and I think you're right, that I might see some more energy carried down range because of the better B.C. I'm cautious on the 180 NPart in this application, because like the guy from Nosler said, the 180gr NPart was really designed for higher velocities than I'll push with this Krag. With a spitzer/spire profile, my on-hand options are the Hornady Interlock and the Speer Hot Cor. I keep reading great things on the Hot Cor as a bullet that flat out works, and is inexpensive to boot. I'll see what sort of accuracy I can wring out of her with the Hot Cor (And probably throw the Sierra 180 PH RN in the mix as well, although I think I know where I'll end up, the BC is nearly identical to the 170gr Nos RN, so I'll probably be down on velocity).

Because the limitations aren't necessarily with the cartridge itself, rather the action, I have a hard time gauging safe pressure levels aside from book loads. The primers are always nice, the cases always extract easily, etc.

horsey300 said:
Either of those would give me plenty of confidence, remember that even though your 170 was designed to be softer for .30-30, it's still a partition, so it'll still do some plenty of work for you but also that partition construction can cause higher pressure than a regular cup and core construction bullet, so I'd be careful with trying to hotrod it in the krag, you have 2 nodes with plenty of speed and accuracy, I'd be content really. But because I'm me, I'd also see if a 180 can run a titch faster with less pressure concern and equal accuracy just so I had a backup load.
1.5"@100 yds still equals a tiny group at 200 yds and anywhere in between, and if we must get hung up on energy, then I'll suggest that an elk getting hit with 1300 ft-lbs at 150 yds is unlikely to shrug and chuckle and even less likely if you hit where you are supposed to! I'd run that 170 and bring back a pic heavy resurrection of the results after you tag out. I think if you asked anyone if a .30-30 with a 170 partition was too weak for an elk at 75 yds (ballpark guesstimate, too lazy to look up numbers right now) they'd get you straight quickly, and that's roughly the same ballistic profile you're building I think.
Eta slightly more awake now, please pay attention to what I said about the partition vs pressure I reread a previous post of yours comparing nosler 165 and Hodgdon 150 data, I looked at hodgdon 165 and 180 data and I think you're right where you ought to be. I think pushing 48 or more gr with a heavy construction bullet (partition or Barnes or swift) would be unwise, if you wish to experiment, do so with the softer bullets and then you have a safer baseline to watch for the pressure spikes. Just my two cents, others may not agree, and maybe for great reasons, so their input would be worth paying attention to as well. In a modern action I'd be a little less concerned

horsey300 · Sep 19, 2020

CoRifleman said:
Appreciate it all. I'll leave the 170 NPart where it is. I don't want to try and get more out of the rifle or cartridge than I should - just not worth it. I was planning on trying a 180 or two as well, and I think you're right, that I might see some more energy carried down range because of the better B.C. I'm cautious on the 180 NPart in this application, because like the guy from Nosler said, the 180gr NPart was really designed for higher velocities than I'll push with this Krag. With a spitzer/spire profile, my on-hand options are the Hornady Interlock and the Speer Hot Cor. I keep reading great things on the Hot Cor as a bullet that flat out works, and is inexpensive to boot. I'll see what sort of accuracy I can wring out of her with the Hot Cor (And probably throw the Sierra 180 PH RN in the mix as well, although I think I know where I'll end up, the BC is nearly identical to the 170gr Nos RN, so I'll probably be down on velocity).

Because the limitations aren't necessarily with the cartridge itself, rather the action, I have a hard time gauging safe pressure levels aside from book loads. The primers are always nice, the cases always extract easily, etc.

The sierra 180 may allow you to squeeze more velocity than the 170 partition, I'm not sure of how much, but as an example in one of my cartridges, hodgdon data says that the 85 gr Barnes flies at xxxx fps with a max load of 47(iirc) gr of my powder, however my 85 gr cup and core did not love that data and we were able to push quite a bit higher, when we compared the 90 gr cup and core data with a max load of 48(iirc) of the same powder, we were able to get much more accurate and better matched velocity to what we were expecting. The main keys are the primer flow and hard bolt lift. That= time to back it off. In another gun, I can scoot a 100 prohunter a lil harder than a 95 gr partition. Someone else may have a better explanation, but essentially the division in an a-frame won't obturate or "flex" into the bore/rifling as soft as a cup and core, thus the suggestion that a 180 MAY perform closer to what you seek, but again I'll iterate that your 170 load is something I'd be quite content with to 150 yds.

CoRifleman · Sep 22, 2020

20200922_095258

CoRifleman
Sep 22, 2020

The carbine really does not want to feed the 180gr spitzer rounds at all. The blunt lead nose catches on the breech end during chambering, regardless of seat depth. I found if I just lightly put a point on the tip, they jump the edge smoothly and chamber just fine. The far left pic is the whole tip straightened, the middle is just the leading edge, the right bullet is unmolested. Either adjustment fixes the issue.

If I want a bullet with a higher B.C. than the round nose, it's either this, or a tipped projectile that will truly reliably expand down to 1800fps.... If that even exists.

CoRifleman · Sep 22, 2020

Update with H4350 vs I4350.

So I was looking to try the H4350 instead of the I4350 based on less temp sens of the H. It's not a huge deal, but I didn't want to overload in hot temps on the Krag action.

The results were totally unexpected - I expected to lose velocity vs the I4350.

The bullet was the 170gr Nos Part, set long, .308 in the case for a 3.028OAL. (For reference the Hodgdon listed 180gr Speer GS Load at 3.090 has .392 worth of bullet in the case. My loaded round is shorter by a very small amount, but also has a bit less case volume taken up by the bullet.)

The 150gr load for IMR4350 is a max 48.5c@2615, the H is 49c@2388. For 165gr, the H is 48 max @ 2242fps, no I4350 load. For 180gr, the I is 46@2445, the H 46 @2110. My Lee manual lists NO pressure amounts for the H4350 loads, neither does Hodgdon data.

With those data points, I loaded the H4350 @ 46.5, 47 & 47.5. I expected lower velocity than the I4350, H4350 is consistently listed as slower than I4350.

I4350 @ 46.5 = 2236fps
I4350 @ 47 = 2270fps

H4350 @ 46.5 = 2323 (1st shot was wet bore, raised the average, the shots went 2339, 2315, 2314)
H4350 @ 47 = 2331 (2335, 2327, 2332)
H4350 @ 47.5 = 2376 (2391, 2358, 2379)

So, at same load, 46.5, the H was 87 fps faster on average.

On one of the 47gr, and one of the 47.5gr I did have small primer changes (shoulders not quite as round - but these are Federal primers which are pretty soft). The force required to work the bolt never changed.

The groups were as follows

46.5 1-7/8"
47 1-1/4"
47.5 1-1/8"

If my chrono is to be believed, the 47.5 load at 2376 fps mv gives the following results downrange...

100yds - 2129fps - 1711ftlbs - 0" drop, 1" drift @ 10mph
150yds - 2011fps - 1527ftlbs - 2" drop, 3" drift @ 10mph
200yds - 1897fps - 1358ftlbs - 6" drop, 5" drift @ 10mph

I'm going to load a 5 shot group of the 47.5 load. If I can repeat the group and velocity, this load is a real winner. I think that performance out to 200yards is great, and if repeatable really takes away the pressure of finding a spire point load that works in this carbine.

Edit: Took it back out today with the 47.5 h4350 load. 6 shots, velocity sitting at 2360-2370. Would consider a max load. Primers look good. Brass good. Bolt easy. But she's kicking pretty good.

DocRock · Sep 22, 2020

I am a fan of the Krag. I think it's a perfectly good cartridge and rifle for elk. But, I'm sorry to say, you're doing it wrong.

Looking at your numbers, you have muzzle velocity slightly below 30-30 Win. Possibly because of spitzer bullets, your 150 and 200 yard range numbers above will be somewhat higher than the 30-30. And you are using a light for cartridge bullet that will be operating at the bottom edge of its performance envelope on arrival at those farther distances.

The defining characteristic of the Krag cartridge is that lovely long neck (and the long chambers of the rifles). Use it. Think less about velocity and more about penetration and terminal performance. The Krag is never going to deliver so-called "hydrostatic shock". What it does is put 180 to 200 grs of bullet deep into a big animal. And those bullets need to be constructed such that they will open at the lower terminal velocities of the Krag. A decent cup and core 180 soft point at 2100 fps is a much better choice than a tougher lighter bullet at 2300 fps.

CoRifleman · Sep 22, 2020

Hey Doc! The bullet I'm using is a 170gr Nos Partition Round Nose that is designed to be effective at 30-30 velocities (2200fps mv) - as opposed to the Spire Partitions built more around 30-06 velocities. I have the spire point Partitions on hand, but that's not what I'm using here. I'm able to load these long, which puts it nearly as close to the lands as the original 220gr round nose bullet which I've found helps accuracy. The comparable 30-30 cartridge with this round offered by Federal is down on both velocity and energy to my results this afternoon. https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/nosler-partition/11-P3030D.html At 200yds, the Federal round is at 1619fps and 990ftlbs - the muzzle velocity is 2200fps. Mine should be nearly 1900fps and 1350ftlbs @ 200yds based on the 2370fps muzzle velo. I'm not trying to be hung up on numbers, but it's the only way I have to compare the two rounds.

I wasn't able to get the Horn Interlock Spire or Speer Hot Cor Spire to feed reliably. The tip hangs on the breech edge I don't have a problem taking advice and mixing in the Interlock Round Nose or Sierra Pro Hunter Round Nose and seeing what they'll do. I guess I was just impressed that I found a Partition load that chambered every time, shot accurately, and did so in a performance window that Nosler said would be extremely effective in the Krag.

DocRock said:
I am a fan of the Krag. I think it's a perfectly good cartridge and rifle for elk. But, I'm sorry to say, you're doing it wrong.

Looking at your numbers, you have muzzle velocity slightly below 30-30 Win. Possibly because of spitzer bullets, your 150 and 200 yard range numbers above will be somewhat higher than the 30-30. And you are using a light for cartridge bullet that will be operating at the bottom edge of its performance envelope on arrival at those farther distances.

The defining characteristic of the Krag cartridge is that lovely long neck (and the long chambers of the rifles). Use it. Think less about velocity and more about penetration and terminal performance. The Krag is never going to deliver so-called "hydrostatic shock". What it does is put 180 to 200 grs of bullet deep into a big animal. And those bullets need to be constructed such that they will open at the lower terminal velocities of the Krag. A decent cup and core 180 soft point at 2100 fps is a much better choice than a tougher lighter bullet at 2300 fps.

DocRock · Sep 22, 2020

CoRifleman said:
Hey Doc! The bullet I'm using is a 170gr Nos Partition Round Nose that is designed to be effective at 30-30 velocities (2200fps mv) - as opposed to the Spire Partitions built more around 30-06 velocities. I have the spire point Partitions on hand, but that's not what I'm using here. I'm able to load these long, which puts it nearly as close to the lands as the original 220gr round nose bullet which I've found helps accuracy. The comparable 30-30 cartridge with this round offered by Federal is down on both velocity and energy to my results this afternoon. https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/nosler-partition/11-P3030D.html At 200yds, the Federal round is at 1619fps and 990ftlbs - the muzzle velocity is 2200fps. Mine should be nearly 1900fps and 1350ftlbs @ 200yds based on the 2370fps muzzle velo. I'm not trying to be hung up on numbers, but it's the only way I have to compare the two rounds.

I wasn't able to get the Horn Interlock Spire or Speer Hot Cor Spire to feed reliably. The tip hangs on the breech edge I don't have a problem taking advice and mixing in the Interlock Round Nose or Sierra Pro Hunter Round Nose and seeing what they'll do. I guess I was just impressed that I found a Partition load that chambered every time, shot accurately, and did so in a performance window that Nosler said would be extremely effective in the Krag.

My bad. You're doing it right :thumbup:

I thought those numbers were for the 150 partitions. That will be a great round. Happy hunting.

Bfh_auto · Sep 23, 2020

CoRifleman said:
Hey Doc! The bullet I'm using is a 170gr Nos Partition Round Nose that is designed to be effective at 30-30 velocities (2200fps mv) - as opposed to the Spire Partitions built more around 30-06 velocities. I have the spire point Partitions on hand, but that's not what I'm using here. I'm able to load these long, which puts it nearly as close to the lands as the original 220gr round nose bullet which I've found helps accuracy. The comparable 30-30 cartridge with this round offered by Federal is down on both velocity and energy to my results this afternoon. https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/nosler-partition/11-P3030D.html At 200yds, the Federal round is at 1619fps and 990ftlbs - the muzzle velocity is 2200fps. Mine should be nearly 1900fps and 1350ftlbs @ 200yds based on the 2370fps muzzle velo. I'm not trying to be hung up on numbers, but it's the only way I have to compare the two rounds.

I wasn't able to get the Horn Interlock Spire or Speer Hot Cor Spire to feed reliably. The tip hangs on the breech edge I don't have a problem taking advice and mixing in the Interlock Round Nose or Sierra Pro Hunter Round Nose and seeing what they'll do. I guess I was just impressed that I found a Partition load that chambered every time, shot accurately, and did so in a performance window that Nosler said would be extremely effective in the Krag.

You're on a good track. I want to see pictures of a Krag on your elk hunt.

horsey300 · Sep 23, 2020

CoRifleman said:
20200922_095258

CoRifleman

Sep 22, 2020

The carbine really does not want to feed the 180gr spitzer rounds at all. The blunt lead nose catches on the breech end during chambering, regardless of seat depth. I found if I just lightly put a point on the tip, they jump the edge smoothly and chamber just fine. The far left pic is the whole tip straightened, the middle is just the leading edge, the right bullet is unmolested. Either adjustment fixes the issue.

If I want a bullet with a higher B.C. than the round nose, it's either this, or a tipped projectile that will truly reliably expand down to 1800fps.... If that even exists.

The sst should expand down to around 1600 ballistic tip from nosler around 1800.

CoRifleman said:
Update with H4350 vs I4350.

So I was looking to try the H4350 instead of the I4350 based on less temp sens of the H. It's not a huge deal, but I didn't want to overload in hot temps on the Krag action.

The results were totally unexpected - I expected to lose velocity vs the I4350.

The bullet was the 170gr Nos Part, set long, .308 in the case for a 3.028OAL. (For reference the Hodgdon listed 180gr Speer GS Load at 3.090 has .392 worth of bullet in the case. My loaded round is shorter by a very small amount, but also has a bit less case volume taken up by the bullet.)

The 150gr load for IMR4350 is a max 48.5c@2615, the H is 49c@2388. For 165gr, the H is 48 max @ 2242fps, no I4350 load. For 180gr, the I is 46@2445, the H 46 @2110. My Lee manual lists NO pressure amounts for the H4350 loads, neither does Hodgdon data.

With those data points, I loaded the H4350 @ 46.5, 47 & 47.5. I expected lower velocity than the I4350, H4350 is consistently listed as slower than I4350.

I4350 @ 46.5 = 2236fps
I4350 @ 47 = 2270fps

H4350 @ 46.5 = 2323 (1st shot was wet bore, raised the average, the shots went 2339, 2315, 2314)
H4350 @ 47 = 2331 (2335, 2327, 2332)
H4350 @ 47.5 = 2376 (2391, 2358, 2379)

So, at same load, 46.5, the H was 87 fps faster on average.

On one of the 47gr, and one of the 47.5gr I did have small primer changes (shoulders not quite as round - but these are Federal primers which are pretty soft). The force required to work the bolt never changed.

The groups were as follows

46.5 1-7/8"
47 1-1/4"
47.5 1-1/8"

If my chrono is to be believed, the 47.5 load at 2376 fps mv gives the following results downrange...

100yds - 2129fps - 1711ftlbs - 0" drop, 1" drift @ 10mph
150yds - 2011fps - 1527ftlbs - 2" drop, 3" drift @ 10mph
200yds - 1897fps - 1358ftlbs - 6" drop, 5" drift @ 10mph

I'm going to load a 5 shot group of the 47.5 load. If I can repeat the group and velocity, this load is a real winner. I think that performance out to 200yards is great, and if repeatable really takes away the pressure of finding a spire point load that works in this carbine.

By jove I think you've got something!! I like it! Looking forward to seeing results from the field!!!

30-40 Krag IMR4350 150gr NosPart

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