Discreet Urban Carbine

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I can't address the "discrete" aspect, because so much of that concept is purely subjective and based on the eye of the beholder. But some years ago, my next door neighbors asked to see my home defense carbine. I brought out my Winchester Trapper in .357.

Their reaction was to laugh hysterically, to the point of tears. One of them said, "I had one of those as a kid, to play cowboys and Indians!" The other said, "I thought you were going to bring out some sort of assault rifle!"

In retrospect, I guess that's the reaction I'd want everyone to have... :)

Here's the Trapper with a few cartridge-compatible handguns... :)

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Winchester Trapper in .30-30 versus a Springfield Saint pistol in 300 Blackout. I'll take the Saint. It is even more compact with Lancer 10 round magazines that barely stick out of the magazine well. This is a file photo. The Saint has flip up backup sights now.
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I can't address the "discrete" aspect, because so much of that concept is purely subjective and based on the eye of the beholder. But some years ago, my next door neighbors asked to see my home defense carbine. I brought out my Winchester Trapper in .357.

Their reaction was to laugh hysterically, to the point of tears. One of them said, "I had one of those as a kid, to play cowboys and Indians!" The other said, "I thought you were going to bring out some sort of assault rifle!"

In retrospect, I guess that's the reaction I'd want everyone to have... :)

Here's the Trapper with a few cartridge-compatible handguns... :)

View attachment 943949
That's quite the balancing act, looks like nice wood on that Trapper, too.
 
"Discrete" takes on meaning through the context in which it is used.

There are times and places where a traditional looking lever-action could be seen as "discrete" in the way it would not necessarily raise eyebrows the way an AR might.

Outside of a hunting situation, range trip, or some other set of circumstances where the presence of a long arm would not be outside the situational norm then any design of rifle or carbine is going to be noticed - possibly in a negative way. If one pulls out a lever-action in a place where one is not expected to be showing weaponry I do not see that it will be any more discrete than if one had pulled out an AR.

In those situations better to have it concealed somehow that keeps others from recognizing it for what it is while still allowing for it be relatively readily produced.
 
Several folk have mentioned Henry rifles,,,
But I don't consider them to be advantageous.

If the rifle doesn't have a side-loading option,,,
It's too slow to reload.

So you confront goblins and lever out a fast five rounds,,,
The good part of side-loading is you can top off the ammo tube easily.

So unless you are talking about the new Henry's that do have a side-loading gate,,,
You are handicapping yourself if the fight is prolonged.

If there is anyone who thinks lever guns are slow,,,
Go to a SASS event some day.

By the sound you will swear they are shooting semi-automatic rifles.

A side-loading lever gun in .357 Magnum,,,
Should be the official home defense rifle of California.

And all other restrictive states for that matter.

Aarond

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Some of the posts in this thread seems to be stating the word “cowboy,” or the term “cowboy gun,” with some level of contempt. Of course, the typed word word lacks tone. I just wanted to clarify that my previous post did not mean to imply any level of contempt.

A lever rifle, with a side loading gate, chambered for any effective cartridge, remains viable for “social” purposes. The flatter and slimmer profile of a lever rifle will fit in places where an AR15 would not. I find serious roles for both types of weapons, and do not feel less “safe,” being armed with a good lever rifle. Plus, it is handy if my carry handgun and rifle can eat from the same box. ;)
 
Arming the average person with a lever gun and leading him to believe he’s well-equipped to respond to violent threats in an urban environment is doing that person a very gross disservice, IMO.

That isn’t to say a lever gun can’t be used to defeat an armed attacker, just that it’s so far from being ideal when compared to readily available alternatives that it seems silly to even be considered.

AR15s may have a more complex manual of arms, but not to the point that it can’t be quickly learned. A few hundred rounds of ammo and a few short hours on a range, with a competent instructor, could give even a completely novice shooter a far better fighting chance than the same amount of practice time and ammo with a lever gun. It could even be argued that the novice AR15 user would have an advantage over someone who had been using and training with a lever gun for many years. We aren’t talking about creating warriors, here; just about taking the average person with little hands-on time and equipping them with the skills and tools to get out of a fight alive. In that world, having lever guns enter the conversation seems kinda absurd.
 
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Arming the average person with a lever gun and leading him to believe he’s well-equipped to respond to violent threats in an urban environment is doing that person a very gross disservice, IMO.

That isn’t to say a lever gun can’t be used to defeat an armed attacker, just that it’s so far from being ideal when compared to readily available alternatives that it seems silly to even be considered.

AR15s more have a more complex manual of arms, but not to the point that it can’t be quickly learned. A few hundred rounds of ammo and a few short hours on a range, with a competent instructor, could give even a completely novice shooter a far better fighting chance than the same amount of practice time and ammo with a lever gun. We aren’t talking about creating warriors, here; just about taking the average person with little hands-on time and equipping them with the skills and tools to get out of a fight alive. In that world, having lever guns enter the conversation seems kinda absurd.

exactly, and i will add the limited ammo capacity of the lever action vs a quick loading detachable magazine.
 
If one wanted it to be discreet with a large rifle. Make it look like a toy. Yes it's a bad idea. But in all fairness if one wants to be discreet. Make it look like a water gun. I saw one enterprising person make a mossberg 500 look like a super soaker. At the very least glue a orange cap to end of barrel. Or wear a trench coat.
 

A 9mm defensive round generally means hollowpoint so the only thing to be aware of if you're going to shoot a PCC defensively is to make sure the bullet performs well at the speed it comes out of a rifle barrel. I think typically that means you're better off going heavy for caliber. Or I suppose one of the non-expanding Lehigh bullets may work well at a higher velocity. I still think that Marlin would garner plenty of attention, though, unless trench coats are still in style where you live.
 
I would go with a 30 caliber carbine clone for a "social" situation. As for lever actions being less "frightening... I remember when Dad was riding his horse in the front pasture complete with a Marlin 336 in a saddle boot. The city people transplant that lived adjacent actually had the nerve to cross the fence and demand that Dad cease his "disgusting display" of his weapons of war. Dad told the dog to put the guy back on his side of the fence and that evening Dad and the sheriff laughed about it.

I remember mine taking the horse and the lever gun down the river bottom looking for that no good coyote taking his livestock. No neighbor complaints though. Easy, accurate and good through brush. Unless you need to take out an army of zombies the lever gun gets it done.
 
My choice would be to Avoid walking in urban (or even suburban) streets as long as the streets in a tense neighborhood (or worse) aren't blocked, and the car has gas.

If people are forced to walk home or to a safer area of town from where a car can Not be moved, then does it matter which gun is carried inside a guitar or Tennis bag?
Some people will assume that it's an AR, AK or a Thompson, therefore it might not matter what is concealed if it remains out of view.

If a lever-action carbine somehow were spotted, just say they you are leaving town to go saddle your horse.
 
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I have 2 "sets" of pistol caliber carbines...
Marlin 1894c w/ S&W 686
Ruger PC Carbine w/ Ruger SR9c ... and in most reasonably possible scenarios, I wouldn`t feel undergunned.
Concerning "Black Rifles", I also have both a Polytech AK and a Draco so the lead slinging ability is there in case of the Zombie Apocalypse ;)
 
So once back in the early 1970's the mission was to penitrate a field launch (Training with Concrete warheads and no equipment requiring live rounds for security) site of a Pershing Battery in the Graffenhower training area. Security was active with patrols and fixed dug in fighting positions.

My little three man team was doing a recon to determine the least expensive way to get in and leave chalk messages on launchers and such then shoot Our way out with blanks.

We observed a German Family picking Mushrooms ( the blue berries were not ripe yet, darn it) and the security teams mostly ignored them.

We went back to the rear then went on to main post and bought plastic pails....as it happened I had my civie heavy winter jacket in my foot locker and some German slacks and loafers and a beat up Felt Muzz and a shirt and another guy had a German field jacket (a different cut and shade than ours with little German flags on the arms) a quite common item of wear for German youth with jeans at the time and I am not sure I want to Know why Arnie had a nice sun dress and wig in his foot locker, but he did along with a big droopy sort of capeish wool knit wrap. (hey if you don't want to know, don't ask)

Any rate we took our M16 A1s down to upper and lowers and used Duct tape to make loops so the pieces could be slung under each arm and field jacket guy and I carried a pile of 20 rounders in our pockets.

We came back to the field site and started up hill picking mushrooms, turning some down at random, having no Idea what was safe or not, but excitedly picking some and dropping into the buckets. We worked our way up to maybe 35 yards from an M60 position and some one yelled "Hey!" at us.

We chose to approach that position so it was on our left so the position on our right would be further away because we all had a few inches of M16 Barrel sticking out on the right. I looked up at the gun crew and smiled holding up my bucket and a mushroom and yelled back. "Hallo! Hier ist gute Fungi!!!" The gun crew murmerd to one another as we continued to cross the line between their position and the next then waved us on. Soon we were amongst the vehicles and launchers and stopped behind a power station to assemble our weapons. We marked the three nearest launchers ( heavy section had six launchers) to simulate placing charges on engine sections. We noticed the "Winabago" the large van housing Battery Control Central and walked over to it all unchallenged in our civies with out M16A1 rifles and one guy opened the door while the cross dresser and I did mag dumps into the BCC screaming like mad men. We came out the same general way we went in but through the M 60 position we had goofed earlier who were all facing outwards and never saw us until it was over. The one field judge that noticed us after the BCC straffing said we got out clean.

So see discrete carry of an AR in two pieces CAN be useful!

I have been known to carry a 16 inch AR mid length Carbine with M4 stock upper and lower separate in a yoga mat bag containing just enough yoga mat to wrap around once to break up bumps. With the sling attached to both ends it is possible to carry two 20 rounders in the bag with the gun and one in an external pocket looks like a soap dish. Add a sweat rag on a carabiner and no one things "GUN!!!" at all.

Since you asked, from over shoulder on strap to round in chamber is less than ten seconds.

Yes there is room for a red dot.

-kBob
 
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