Colt .38 Army Special (1923)

My Army Special was made in... maybe 1921?

I haunted Gunbroker for a while and found one with worn finish for... I don't remember for sure. Maybe $300 OTD? I am a bargain hunter, though.

I've shot my FiL's mild reloads and cheap factory ammo through it with no problems. It's as accurate as any other centerfire revolver with small sights. (A little better than my S&W "pre Model 10" from the same era, actually.)

NIGHTLORD40K said:

Oh, sure you can be a collector and not a "Collecteur," lol.

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Howdy

I may be a "Collecteur", but I must admit this is the first time I have heard that term.

This Colt Army Special shipped in 1921. Sorry, I have not been able to find how much I paid for it, but it was probably a pretty penny.






This Colt Officer's Model Target 22 Rimfire shipped in 1935. I got it for $650 a few years ago, a very good price.






Did somebody say Police Positives? These are all Police Positive Specials, except the little 22 Target on the right. The others are all 38 Special except the one in the middle which is a 32-20.

Charly2020! said:

yes, they are originals.

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Oh, I meant toivo's grips, Charly2020!. Sorry not to be more specific. I never doubted yours were original. In fact, I was surprised to learn there were any Army Specials with wood grips as standard. I had forgotten ever seeing any.

And I should have said so before, but I think the people here who have recommended against refinishing your gun have given you good advice. Collectors generally do not want refinished guns. Shooters regard them with suspicion, because you never know how much abuse the refinish is concealing. That does not leave many potential buyers for an old revolver, even a Colt. Also, I think "good" and "inexpensive" do not go together when it comes to refinishing a gun.

Just to reminisce, I think I have only had one gun refinished in 35+ years of gun collecting. That was a CZ-38 automatic I got for $75 (in about 1982) because somebody else had already buffed all the finish off. While it was not a good shooter because it was a CZ-38, it was an interesting gun in good mechanical condition. The refinisher did a swell job, and even fixed the buggered-up heads of the grip screws. He was an immigrant just starting out in this country, and later became the local guy that everyone who wanted good gun refinishing or restoration went to. I was very lucky, and I never tried my luck with re-bluing again.

I use good ol hoppes #9 and Kano Kroil.

The rounds you have pictured are .38 S&W. That is not the same as .38. S&W special. A .38 S&W gun probably will chamber .38 special. So is your revolver .38 S&W or .38 special? From what I read on line you could shoot either one in it.

Master Blaster said:

The rounds you have pictured are .38 S&W. That is not the same as .38. S&W special. A .38 S&W gun probably will chamber .38 special. So is your revolver .38 S&W or .38 special? From what I read on line you could shoot either one in it.

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Master Blaster, I am afraid what you have read on the Internet is not accurate. Hard to believe, isn't it? But 38 Special usually CANNOT be loaded into a gun made for 38 S&W. In many guns, the 38 S&W cylinder is simply too short to allow this, and in any well made 38 S&W (and any Colt certainly qualifies) there are steps in the firing chambers that prevent seating a 38 Special.

As with anything, there are exceptions to the rule. In particular, some S&W Victory Model revolvers made for the British in the Second World War subsequently had their 38 S&W-length chamber steps machined out to make them more saleable in the USA. That sort of worked, in that they could be loaded with 38 Special, but it was not a great idea. Accuracy was thought to be poor, if nothing else.

As an aside, Lee Harvey Oswald had one of those, because he was dirt poor and they were dirt cheap. He used it to murder a Dallas policeman after he killed JFK. Oswald's revolver was said to have been loaded with a weird assortment of ammunition that he may have bought one round at a time. With the chamber steps gone, you could put things like 38 Super in those guns, not that that was a good idea either.

Those 38 SW rounds could be fired in any 38spl or 357mag though, correct?

BigBlue 94 asked: "Those 38 SW rounds could be fired in any 38spl or 357mag though, correct?"

Nope, in my experience that's even less possible than firing 38 Special in a 38 S&W gun. Technically, the bullet diameter for 38 S&W is .359 inch while for 38 Special and 357 Magnum (of course) it is .357. It has always been surprising to me, but that .002 inch difference has been enough to keep 38 S&W from seating well enough to be fired in any 38 Special gun I have tried it in. I believe others here have found 38 Special guns where you can seat 38 S&W, but that seems to be the exception and not the rule.

PS - If what you meant was "those 38 S&W rounds could be fired in any 38 Special or 357 Magnum in which they could be loaded", I guess you'd be right. 38 S&W is less powerful than 38 Special (the low velocity 38 Special wadcutter load was designed to duplicate 38 S&W ballistics in a 38 Special case, as I understand it) and far less powerful than 357 Magnum. The .002 inch oversized bullet might lead to some extra leading in the bore, but that's about it, AFAIK.

PPS - See Driftwood Johnson's post below for really accurate data on 38 S&W and 38 Special cartridge and chamber dimensions. The figures I use here are not exact.

Monac said:

BigBlue 94 asked: "Those 38 SW rounds could be fired in any 38spl or 357mag though, correct?"

Nope, in my experience that's even less possible than firing 38 Special in a 38 S&W gun. Technically, the bullet diameter for 38 S&W is .359 inch while for 38 Special and 357 Magnum it is .357. It has always been surprising to me, but that .002 inch difference has been enough to keep 38 S&W from seating well enough to be fired in any 38 Special gun I have tried it in (which to be honest, is not a lot). I believe others here have found 38 Special guns where you can seat 38 S&W, but that seems to be the exception and not the rule.

PS - If what you meant was "those 38 S&W rounds could be fired in any 38 Special or 357 Magnum in which they could be loaded", I guess you'd be right. 38 S&W is less powerful than 38 Special (the low velocity 38 Special wadcutter load was designed to duplicate 38 S&W ballistics in a 38 Special case, as I understand it) and far less powerful than 357 Magnum. The .002 inch oversized bullet might lead to some extra leading in the bore, but that's about it, AFAIK.

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I see. I was not aware of the .359 diameter. Though I am familiar, as the 22 sav HP round uses a .229 bullet, which are tough to find.

I was assuming they both fired the same diameter, and since it was shorter than the Special, it would be ok. Like shooting either 32 colt or SW in a 32 HR mag or 327 fed chambered gun.

I apreciate the explanation!

BigBlue 94 said:

Those 38 SW rounds could be fired in any 38spl or 357mag though, correct?

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BigBlue 94 said:

I see. I was not aware of the .359 diameter. Though I am familiar, as the 22 sav HP round uses a .229 bullet, which are tough to find.

I was assuming they both fired the same diameter, and since it was shorter than the Special, it would be ok. Like shooting either 32 colt or SW in a 32 HR mag or 327 fed chambered gun.

I apreciate the explanation!

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You ought to have been right, BigBlue 94. But back in the 1890s when S&W was developing the 38 Special, they chose to base it on 38 Long Colt instead of on their own 38 S&W, because the US Army was using 38 Long Colt at the time and S&W was hoping to sell their new revolver, for which they were designing the new ammunition, to the Army. Even thought that did not happen, the new S&W round quickly became much more popular than 38 Long Colt. Back then, S&W was the "bee's knees" in cartridge design, as I believe the young people say.

Charly2020! said:

Since it has not been fired in over 50 years and it hasn't been cleaned it that long of a time, do you (or any one else) suggest a cleaning method that will not mess up with the current finishing?

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Lightly polish with oiled 000 or 0000 steel wool.

Driftwood Johnson said:

I may be a "Collecteur", but I must admit this is the first time I have heard that term

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Meant as a compliment, sir!

Charly2020! said:

Since it has not been fired in over 50 years and it hasn't been cleaned it that long of a time, do you (or any one else) suggest a cleaning method that will not mess up with the current finishing?

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I'm not really an expert on finishes that old, but I don't think regular gun cleaning solvent and gun oil will cause it any issues. Keep abrasives away from it, steel wool, scrubbing pads, just use cotton cloth or little patches, maybe a nylon brush like a toothbrush, but I wouldn't. oiling the exterior over time and just polishing it with a cotton cloth will give it a luster people who like antiques will drool over.

you should find a revolver guide, to completely check that thing over if you're going to fire it and not have a gunsmith go over it. end shake, lock up, cylinder alignment, trigger checks, there are a lot of tests/checks and you really do want to do them or have them done ... I've done them and they are not that hard, but there is a lot of things to check to make sure it works correctly. there's a midway video of smiley Larry, going over some old revolvers, I think they are with a Smith and Wesson revolver, but the checks are the same.

I bought this Army Special chambered in 41 Long Colt a few years ago:

Dates from 1915




The finish is a little rough but it locks up tight and with properly sized 200 grain heel based based bullets it’s fairly accurate (as 41 Long Colts go).

Charly2020! said:

@BigBlue 94 & @Monac great conversation! Thank you.

I took the liberty to put a round of the .38 S&W REM-UMC into the cylinder of my revolver and it didn’t fit at all (see the pictures I Just uploaded). Therefore, the theory that the .38 S&W could be fired by my .38 Special is not valid. That being said, I would have thought the opposite. Thoughts?

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The .38 S&W case is fatter than the .38spl. It may be possible to chamber very short Specials, such as wadcutters, into some .38 S&W cylinders, but not the opposite.

Howdy

There is a lot of misinformation about the 38 Smith and Wesson Cartridge on the Internet.

Smith and Wesson developed the 38 Smith and Wesson cartridge for their 38 Single Action,1st Model, Top Break revolver, which was manufactured from 1876 until 1877. This model was also known as the Baby Russian. So it follows, the cartridge has been around since 1876. This Baby Russian left the factory in 1877. Over the years, S&W made a great many more Top Break revolvers chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge, but this was the first.






Smith and Wesson developed the 38 Special Cartridge for the 38 Military and Police 1st Model (also known as the Model of 1899). This Model 1899 left the factory in 1899. The 38 Special cartridge was developed in 1898 as a replacement for the 38 Long Colt which proved to be under powered in the Philippine Insurrection. (Smith & Wesson always marks guns chambered for 38 Special as 38 S&W Special. It is the same cartridge, S&W just likes to mark their guns that way because they developed the cartridge.






Let's see what we're talking about. In the photo below, the cartridge on the left is a 38 S&W, the round on the right is a 38 Special.






Now let's look at the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) specifications for the two cartridges.

The case of the 38 S&W is ever so slightly tapered. From .3863 at the rear to .3855 at the case mouth. Bullet diameter is given as .361 +.000/-.006. So the narrowest bullet for 38 S&W would be .355. (When I load 38 S&W I use .359 diameter bullets, because that was what I was able to find.)






Case diameter for 38 Special is .379 without any taper. Bullet diameter for lead bullets is .359 +.000/-.003. So the narrowest lead bullet for 38 Special would be .356. Jacketed bullets are .358 +.000/-.003, so the narrowest jacketed bullet for 38 Special would be .355.






Here is my Colt Army Special, which I posted a photo of in post #27, loaded with 38 Special ammunition. These are my handloads, that explains the different headstamps.






In the interest of science, I attempted to load my Army Special with 38 S&W ammunition from 5 different manufacturers. A sample of the different cartridges has been laid out below the revolver. None of these rounds would chamber completely. Owing to the slight taper of the cartridge, and typical manufacturing tolerances, some of the rounds would enter the chambers part way, some would not enter at all.






However, if a 38 Special revolver has slightly oversized chambers, 38 S&W ammunition will chamber all the way.


One other thing to bear in mind. During World War Two, Smith and Wesson made over 110,000 VIctory Model revolvers for England and their allies. These revolvers were chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge, not 38 Special, because that round was more easily available in England. Many, not all, of these revolvers were rechambered to 38 Special when they were imported back into the US. This was done by cutting the chambers deeper for the 38 Special cartridge, but the rearmost section of the chamber was still the larger diameter for the 38 S&W cartridge. It is reported that because the rear of the chamber was slightly oversized for 38 Special, cases often split.

Here's mine ...

Charly2020!,
That is a nice old Colt. I have no experience with them but your post caused me do a little research regarding the various chamberings of these guns.
Here is one that I found of interest:
https://www.oldcolt.com/collections/colt-army-special

Personally, I wouldn’t refinish that gun, but I would put other grips on it for shooting it. I would also have it looked at by a competent gunsmith just to make sure everything operates and lines up the way it should.

My only Army Special, though Ive had many Official Police over the years.

Charly2020! said:

@Pat Riot thank you for the URL. I may not replace the grips as I’ve read they are very fragile. And the last thing I want to do is break/damage them.

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I am not sure I understand, Charly2020!. Hard rubber grips are a bit fragile, especially when it comes to the shock of firing the gun, but normal handling, such as removing them for cleaning or to put on other grips for shooting, is not a problem unless they are deeply cracked already.