Titegroup in the .500 S&W: DON'T!

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Many of the responders in this thread seem to think that I am saying Titegroup is a bad powder, and they (correctly) point out that one shouldn't blame a component for something that is clearly caused by an error on the part of the reloader.

Some activities, and reloading is one of them, can have severe consequences if a person makes a mistake. The reality is that the more you do something, the greater the chances that you will eventually make a mistake. Recognizing this, it makes good sense to employ practices where certain types of mistakes are impossible.

As an example, if you use a circular saw, and sometimes need to change blades before cutting a different type of material, if you always unplug the saw before doing the blade change, it will be impossible to lose fingers, because even if you accidentally bump the operating switch while changing the blade,the saw is not capable of running when it is not plugged in.

To clarify, in my opinion, Titegroup is a totally inappropriate powder to use in the .500 Smith & Wesson cartridge, because there is the potential for catastrophe that does not exist with other powders. Titegroup may be an ideal powder for other calibers such as the 9mm, but I agree with the previous poster who expressed astonishment that Hodgdon even lists data for it in the .500, because listing such data implies that the company thinks it's a good choice for reloaders to use in that caliber.

Similarly, Hodgdon Clays may be the ideal powder for certain shotgun loads, but I would never use it in a magnum revolver because of the aforementioned potential for disaster.

Hodgdon does not list data for Clays in the .500, but they DO list data for this powder in the .44 Magnum. If I were employed at Hodgdon and in charge of what reloading data they published in their manuals and on their website, Clays would not be listed at all in the published loads for the .44 Magnum.
 
murf said:
i haven't tried titegroup in the 45 colt and don't think i ever will.
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I loaded up some 44SPC with TiteGroup... after 50 rounds the pistol was so hot I could hardly hold it to punch the empties out. I don't have that problem with Unique...

I bought 2# of TG on a fluke, during the Dark Ages. The little bit I worked with it left a bad taste in my mouth. I'll burn it up in the 9mm, where it does very well, all things considered. I won't use it anywhere else... and I won't be getting any more.
 
i found unique to be the most forward/back stable powder of all i tested in the 45 colt (even though i went with blue dot) as well as the most accurate. i bought my pound of titegroup for the 9mm and still have most of it left. my 9mm gets fed a lot of w231.

murf
 
John Ross said:
Some people, however, do exactly that. Shooting and reloading, as with all activities that have hundreds of thousands of participants, is a big tent...
View attachment 949903
Extreme left of "Loading" picture shows a Dillon 1050 dedicated to .500 S&W. Extreme right shows an 8 station progressive in .50 BMG.

The Dillon 1050 is being replaced with an autodriven 10 station Mark 7 Evolution Pro.
Click to expand...
There's an awful lot of clutter in those pictures. I can see where it would be more likely to make a mistake.
 
I have yet to ever meet a person who was "perfect" Humans make errors (except some perfect handloaders)

I have never understood why some like to use super fast powders in LARGE magnum cartridges.

Just because there is "data" for it, does not make it the best choice. Why use it? To save a few grains and pennies??
If a mistake is made with powder charge there is less chance for a Kboom with slower powders,
Some people buy these big calibers and the first thing want to know is "what is a good PLINKING LOAD":what:

With the many powders out there (well there used to be) pick another darn powder for the 500. 44 and 357 mags!
 
murf said:
i do a lot of powder forward/powder back testing when developing new loads. the only problem so far is with hs6 in the 45 colt. powder forward increased muzzle velocity over 200 fps. i switched to blue dot for that load.

i haven't tried titegroup in the 45 colt and don't think i ever will.

luck,

murf
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I've shot a lot of Titegroup in 45 Colt and found it to be neck and neck with Unique in accuracy and does not seem to be position sensitive. My wife and I use Trailboss mostly for CAS 44WCF and 45 Colt smokeless for it's bulkyness but I always have Titegroup loads for use during side matches or bonus shots where best accuracy is a must.

The one thing I do not like about Titegroup in a 45Colt is there is such a small amount of powder volume in that huge case and one could double or probably even triple charge a case. I have to wonder if that is what is happening in the 500S&W in these cases we are hearing about.
 
kell said:
There's an awful lot of clutter in those pictures. I can see where it would be more likely to make a mistake.
Click to expand...

That's one way to look at that picture.

Another way is to realize that in a one-person reloading shop with a number of tools, only one tool is being used at a time. All the others that aren't being used are irrelevant, just as the lathe, surface grinder, shaper, and jig borer in a "cluttered" one-person machine shop are irrelevant when the owner is using the vertical mill.

Furthermore, if you have a dedicated tool set up to produce one specific load in one caliber, many potential mistakes that can occur in reloading are rendered all but impossible.

For example, one of the Star tools shown in the picture is set up to load .44 Magnum ammunition with 25.0 grains of H110 powder and a 250 grain Hensley and Gibbs #503 bullet. Couple this with the fact that there are no ball powders with a faster burning rate than H110 anywhere in the building, and I think you can see the safety benefits of such a setup.

I don't load shotgun shells and thus don't have any typical shotgun powders on hand, but even if I did, I can't imagine a circumstance where I might accidentally fill the powder measure on that tool with something like Herco, Red Dot, or Clays and not realize my mistake before the measure was even half full.
 
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Cowhide Cliff said:
The one thing I do not like about Titegroup in a 45Colt is there is such a small amount of powder volume in that huge case and one could double or probably even triple charge a case. I have to wonder if that is what is happening in the 500S&W in these cases we are hearing about.
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I am certain that this is EXACTLY the reason for the .500s that have been blown up using Titegroup.
 
I don't reload 500, but I do 460. All of this got me thinking as typically, about the only Hodgdon powders for many 460 loads is H110(296), Lil Gun, and IMR4227. CFE BLK is an option, but that's a really odd option, not one I'd use.

...but then I looked at the "heavier" projectiles for 460 and there it is, Tightgroup.

Listed as an acceptable powder or no, there's no way I'd want to load that in a 460 (or a 500).

Now...I used the snot out of TG in 9mm and 38 spcl...it's a great and economical powder.
 
I use TG for 9mm (95gr-115gr) and 40S&W(135gr-155gr). Only for light weight bullets. I use slower powders for heavier bullets. Easy to double charge. Must be very diligent. I like it especially for 95gr. soft points in 9mm. Good carry load.
 
Typetwelve said:
I don't reload 500, but I do 460. All of this got me thinking as typically, about the only Hodgdon powders for many 460 loads is H110(296), Lil Gun, and IMR4227. CFE BLK is an option, but that's a really odd option, not one I'd use.
SNIP
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I have no experience (yet) with CFE BLK, but I think that it may prove to be a near-ideal powder for the .500, at least for what I want, and perhaps the .460 as well.

Consider:

It is slower than 296/H110.
It is more dense than 296/H110 (more grains of it will fit in the available space.)
According to the data on Hodgdon's website for the .300 Blackout, it can be loaded to pressures as low as 13,400 PSI (at least in that caliber) without squib issues, so maybe it won't need to be loaded to near full power levels in mag revolvers as is required with 296/H110.

I have long championed 4759 (now discontinued) as a GREAT powder for the .500 for two reasons: First, it is impossible to create an overload with 4759 using ANY bullet in the .500 revolver unless you use a bullet made of something that is more dense than lead. Second, it gives very good power (i.e. 550 @ 1320 FPS) if you want it, but can be loaded way down without ignition issues.

I think CFE BLK may prove to be similar but with more upside on the power spectrum. That is to say, you might be able to exceed 60,000 PSI with CFE BLK, unlike 4759, but I doubt you could create a proof load with it, if my assessment of Hodgdon's reloading data for the powder is correct.
 
John Ross said:
I have no experience (yet) with CFE BLK, but I think that it may prove to be a near-ideal powder for the .500, at least for what I want, and perhaps the .460 as well.

Consider:

It is slower than 296/H110.
It is more dense than 296/H110 (more grains of it will fit in the available space.)
According to the data on Hodgdon's website for the .300 Blackout, it can be loaded to pressures as low as 13,400 PSI (at least in that caliber) without squib issues, so maybe it won't need to be loaded to near full power levels in mag revolvers as is required with 296/H110.

I have long championed 4759 (now discontinued) as a GREAT powder for the .500 for two reasons: First, it is impossible to create an overload with 4759 using ANY bullet in the .500 revolver unless you use a bullet made of something that is more dense than lead. Second, it gives very good power (i.e. 550 @ 1320 FPS) if you want it, but can be loaded way down without ignition issues.

I think CFE BLK may prove to be similar but with more upside on the power spectrum. That is to say, you might be able to exceed 60,000 PSI with CFE BLK, unlike 4759, but I doubt you could create a proof load with it, if my assessment of Hodgdon's reloading data for the powder is correct.
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Focusing on a 300g Hornady XTP in 460, the CFE BLk charge is definitely interesting, 45.2 to 50g charges. Hodgdon lists the 45.2g charge at a low 30.6K PSI, which is 13-19K less than the minimum of any other charge they list. I'm not sure what each number on the burn rate char represents in terms of real speed, but it's listed at a 70 where H110/296 and IMR 4227 are 63,64,65.

I'll admit that that the lower case pressure is appealing, but I do wonder how the muzzle flash would be, those a hefty charges.

I'd probably mess around with it if I had any CFE BLK, but I really don't want to buy an entire lb of it (if I could even find it).
 
Cowhide Cliff said:
I've shot a lot of Titegroup in 45 Colt and found it to be neck and neck with Unique in accuracy and does not seem to be position sensitive. My wife and I use Trailboss mostly for CAS 44WCF and 45 Colt smokeless for it's bulkyness but I always have Titegroup loads for use during side matches or bonus shots where best accuracy is a must.

The one thing I do not like about Titegroup in a 45Colt is there is such a small amount of powder volume in that huge case and one could double or probably even triple charge a case. I have to wonder if that is what is happening in the 500S&W in these cases we are hearing about.
Click to expand...
have you checked position sensitivity with titegroup in the colt? that might be another project for me.

a double charge may not blow up the gun, but a hangfire might; a mystery for certain.

murf
 
murf said:
have you checked position sensitivity with titegroup in the colt? that might be another project for me.

a double charge may not blow up the gun, but a hangfire might; a mystery for certain.

murf
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Powder to front or rear doesn't seem to matter on accuracy or point of impact. I don't believe I've every checked for velocity difference though. That might be a good project if you are bored.
 
Cowhide Cliff said:
Powder to front or rear doesn't seem to matter on accuracy or point of impact. I don't believe I've every checked for velocity difference though. That might be a good project if you are bored.
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i'm very bored as the national forest still has a fire ban on (means i can't shoot there either) so i am lining up my shooting projects when the ban is lifted. i'll add this to the list.

murf
 
I've used Titegroup in the 454. The results seemed fine, but I didn't care for the pronounced barrel heat seemingly caused by the powder. The powder's insensitivity to powder density/position is one of the things Hodgdon touts about the powder, hence their recommendations for use in several revolver rounds with large cases. Among all the fast pistol powders Hodgdon markets, only Titegroup and Trail Boss are recommended in the 500 S&W.
 
BBarn said:
I've used Titegroup in the 454. The results seemed fine, but I didn't care for the pronounced barrel heat seemingly caused by the powder. The powder's insensitivity to powder density/position is one of the things Hodgdon touts about the powder, hence their recommendations for use in several revolver rounds with large cases. Among all the fast pistol powders Hodgdon markets, only Titegroup and Trail Boss are recommended in the 500 S&W.
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...and I'm A-OK with Trail Boss in my 460. If 460 wasn't such a pain to process, I'd be shooting it all of the time with Berry's 250g projectiles and TB.
 
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