Using +P ammo in a Cimarron 38 special

I don’t own one but if I did I’d be shooting reloads at standard 38 Special levels. But I have no reason to shoot +P loads, I don’t load 357 to max either.
That said it is a modem firearm manufactured to modern specs so............

whughett said:

That said it is a modem firearm manufactured to modern specs so............

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But whose specs? Aren't Cimarrons made by Uberti? Do they conform to SAAMI?

" Aren't Cimarrons made by Uberti? Do they conform to SAAMI?"
1.Yes. 2.No.
Uberti uses CIP standards.
-----krinko

wiscoaster said:

But whose specs? Aren't Cimarrons made by Uberti? Do they conform to SAAMI?

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SAMMI specs are different for .38 Special and .38 Special +p. I would think the word of Cimarron Firearms would be Trump. While one +p by accident would not concern me, I myself wouldn't make them a steady diet, if indeed the gun is only chambered and designed for standard .38 ammo. Now if it was chambered for .357, the +p in .38 would be a moot point.

Yes but they know the Ammo is available on the open market and will readily chamber in their product. Wouldn’t be prudent on their part to put a firearm on the market knowing people are going to use commercial Ammo.

whughett said:

Yes but they know the Ammo is available on the open market and will readily chamber in their product. Wouldn’t be prudent on their part to put a firearm on the market knowing people are going to use commercial Ammo.

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...and it certainly wouldn't be prudent for an owner to shoot ammo in a gun that wasn't designed to shoot it. There are too many options for guns that can shoot +p ammo to shoot loose one that can't. The OP doesn't state what model Cimarron he has. There are only a few they produce that are stated to be for .38 special only. But the website is clear on the use of +P ammo.

Can I use _____ ammunition in my Cimarron Firearm?

We recommend that you shoot only standard over the counter ammunition that meet SAMMI specifications, http://www.saami.org/.

Shooting any ammo like +P or reloads will void the warranty on the gun.

Cimarron Firearms does not have any plans to make any guns that shoot +P ammunition.

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You'll be fine It's a modern gun and they make a 357 mag on that same frame.

To me it’s a moot point. What ever the manufacturers reason for cautioning, and they don’t say flat out don’t shoot it, I’d not do it.

JohnKSa said:

And yet a number of manufacturers make firearms and state that they should not be used with +P ammunition. What wouldn't be prudent is to intentionally disregard a manufacturer's recommendation about what pressure ammunition they should/shouldn't use.I seriously doubt that any problems caused by shooting a lot of +P ammo will be due to the frame and its strength or lack thereof.

The OP started out the thread with the answer to his question--and not from the internet, from the manufacturer of the product.

If he wants to shoot +P, no one is stopping him. But if/when something goes wrong, he's on his own. The manufacturer won't help him, and neither will anyone on this thread who told him to go ahead and ignore the warning in the manual.

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I wouldn't make a habit of firing +P out of it. I wouldn't loose sleep over a few factory +P 38 specials. It's a modern firearm made out of modern steel with modern manufacturing technology.

Cimarron has 1 manual for all of their 1873 colt style single action revolvers in all calibers.
https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/manuals-forms

The following warning is used in all of their 1873 colt style manuals in all calibers.

Make certain you are using only new commercially loaded ammunition of the correct caliber. (WARNING: Do NOT use ammunition marked “High Speed” or “High Velocity” and NEVER use reloaded ammunition.)

My 2 Uberti Colt clones in .357 and .45 Colt only see hand loads. I don't exceed max loads listed in my manuals and rarely load to max anyway. I have other guns for more horsepower if I need it.
That said, I wouldn't sweat it if a few +P rounds found their way into my Colt clones but I wouldn't make a habit of it.

You didn't say WHAT Cimarron.
I see no SAA in .38 only on their www.
Now if you have a Conversion or Open Top or Model P Junior, they are not as strong and I can see why they want you to be timid. But one round of +P is still not harmful.

Yeah, reading the gunboards, I can see why they do not approve reloads.

Plus P ammo in .38 spl is for defense and perhaps hunting though I don't know any handgun hunters that use a .38 spl, most will use a .357 mag or heavier magnum for extended range and power.

A SA revolver is a less than ideal self defense gun when compared to more modern type DA revolvers and semi automatics but if that is all you have it is certainly a lot better than lots of alternatives. If a .38 Cimarron SA was all that I had on hand to defend myself I would certainly have no problem keeping it loaded with some +P hollow points. Shoot standard pressure .38 spl at paper targets for practice and games, load +P for times when it may be called upon to defend your or your loved ones life. Limit the use of +P to maintain good condition of the gun.

Jim Watson said:

You didn't say WHAT Cimarron.
I see no SAA in .38 only on their www.
Now if you have a Conversion or Open Top or Model P Junior, they are not as strong and I can see why they want you to be timid. But one round of +P is still not harmful.

Yeah, reading the gunboards, I can see why they do not approve reloads.

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And the open tops are "not as strong" because . . . they make the cylinders inferior? That seems like a lot of "extra" work/design / technology not to make them all of the same material/strength spec. Seems like a lot of liability to make some less than others to a mass audience. Interesting .


Mike

Howdy

As several have said, it would be helpful if you stated exactly which model Cimarron revolver you have. The revolvers patterned after the Colt Single Action Army are chambered for 357 Magnum, as well as a couple of other calibers. Any 357 Magnum revolver can be safely fired with standard SAAMI spec 357 Magnum ammunition, Italy's proofing standards are tougher than the US standards. So any Cimarron revolver chambered for 357 Magnum, whether made by Uberti or Pietta, can safely fire 38 Special +P ammunition.

The revolvers I see on Cimarron's website that are specifically chambered for 38 Special, and not 357 Magnum, are their Remington 1858 Conversion Model, and the 1872 Open Top. The Open Top is chambered for 38 Special, not 357 Magnum. I suspect that the open top construction of the Open Top makes chambering it for 357 Magnum a bad idea. I suspect the removable barrel held in place with a wedge is not a good candidate for the powerful recoil of the 357 Magnum cartridge. The 1858 Conversion Model has a top strap and the barrel is screwed into the frame. I don't know why it is only chambered for 38 Special, and not 357 Magnum. Perhaps it was felt by the manufacturer that this frame would also not be a good candidate for the 357 Magnum cartridge.

So, it would help if you told us exactly which model you have.

For what it's worth, SAAMI Max pressure data for 38 Special is 17,000 psi. For 38 Special +P it is 20,000 psi. Compare that to the Max pressure for 357 Magnum, which is 35,000 psi.

Personally, I don't see the need for 38 Special +P ammo in a single action revolver chambered for 38 Special, but I doubt if a few rounds would hurt it.

Exactly what model is paramount. You can't hurt a .38Spl SAA. If there was a sixgun perfectly suited to .38-44 loads, that is it.

However, speaking for myself, I wouldn't make a habit of shooting +P out of an Open Top or conversion but I really don't think there's going to be an issue in doing so. +P is not that much higher and the guns are overbuilt anyway. Now, 36,000psi .357Mag, that's a different story.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Howdy



I suspect the removable barrel held in place with a wedge is not a good candidate for the powerful recoil of the 357 Magnum cartridge.

For what it's worth, SAAMI Max pressure data for 38 Special is 17,000 psi. For 38 Special +P it is 20,000 psi.

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Pure speculation. A correctly made open top would not have a problem with 38 +P.
Again, speculation on my part but - A , the cylinder isn't long enough for a 357 mag round, which is probably a more correct reason and B, the support system for a 38 spl in the form of an open top is in fact "overkill " for that round. Cylinder walls are thicker, open top layout is more robust than the Remington weaknesses.

Mike

They have to warranty their guns, so why say you can shoot a more powerful version of the round through it?

It's in their best interest to keep pressures down and maybe cause less warranty work. If you tell them you shot a +P through it, they're off the hook and will probably void your warranty. Pretty good deal, for them.

45 Dragoon said:

Pure speculation. A correctly made open top would not have a problem with 38 +P.

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Read what I said again.

I did not say that on open top would have a problem with 38 +P.

I said I suspect the removable barrel held in place with a wedge is not a good candidate for the powerful recoil of the 357 Magnum cartridge.

I suspect you are correct about the length of the cylinder though. That model is available chambered for 45 Colt.

Without going to the SAAMI specs, I just grabbed one of my 45 Colt reloads and a factory 357 Mag with a semi-wadcutter bullet. The 357 Mag is about 1/8" longer than the 45 Colt.

So I suspect the shorter cylinder could not accommodate a 357 Magnum round, in addition to not being able to stand up to the recoil with the barrel attached by a wedge.

I have been considering an open top .38 for a long time.....

I figure that a hard wadcutter or semiwadcutter going 800-900 fps will do all I would want anyway, and that's not super fast or powerful.

I would think that the wedge arrangement, and the lack of a top strap might cause some odd wear with a lot of high pressure shots. The recoil may make the frame tend to bend back away without a top strap to retain it... I don't know.

Stophel said:

I would think that the wedge arrangement, and the lack of a top strap might cause some odd wear with a lot of high pressure shots. The recoil may make the frame tend to bend back away without a top strap to retain it... I don't know.

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Well actually, that is what the arbor is for. It's an open top (no top strap). Just because it is an early design doesn't mean it doesn't work. In fact, it works quite well and is rather over built. I have said many times the Remington with all its ”weaknesses" in its rather "non-beefy" design is still a nice revolver but I have collapsed one . . . but never an open top.

Mike