.410 Revolver Improved Defensive Loadings

BigBlue 94 said:

A 1/5 oz .410 slug has about double the muzzle energy of a 45acp, but at 50 yards the energy is almost equal.

The judge is only good in my eyes as a snake gun. Otherwise, a smaller revolver can do most of what a judge can.

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But what is the actual velocity out of a three inch barrel? Sure isn't going to be anywhere near 1500.

Slugs are no good from the 410 revolvers. At least not at present. They were designed for proper shotguns.

If wanting slug like performance from a governor I think a standard velocity buffalo bore 45 colt hard cast wad cutter is the way to go. Even so I'd say it's a 20 yard or under gun.

PapaG said:

But what is the actual velocity out of a three inch barrel? Sure isn't going to be anywhere near 1500.

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Certainly not. Though will 45 colt be that fast? My point was that the slug looses energy very fast, and is surpassed at 50yds by 45acp.

And out of a derringer, the 410 has a possibility of only having a half inch barrel...

I think that was my point.

defjon said:

If wanting slug like performance from a governor I think a standard velocity buffalo bore 45 colt hard cast wad cutter is the way to go. Even so I'd say it's a 20 yard or under gun.

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Personally, I look at these type guns being a close range utility type gun, not a primary gun. If I use mine, its a second gun to the gun I normally carry, and for a different purpose.

This is how I have mine set up. El Paso Saddlery "Tanker" with a couple of Olongapo Outfitter mag pouches for, I think, an M1. The one pouch has a bunch of #4 410's, and the other a bunch of 000 Buck, and each pouch has a couple of 45acp moon clips. Easy enough to switch that up as needed too.

I have a similar set up! Haha. That is the great thing here. Swiss army gun that can play more roles.

Other guns can fire snake shot rounds. Sure. Others can reach out further or maybe be more accurate or powerful. To my knowledge I don't know of another platform that can duplicate what it does with 410 buck under 10 yards.

The #4 shot really does a lot better for snakes Vs the shotshells in pistols . If you needed to reach out the 45s in moon clips let you. If you needed to punch through some dangerous critter the hardest wc will do it.

Haven't chrono'd from my gov but even 700-750 fps in a buffalo bore 255 gr hardcast wc would probably do the trick.

Okay so something like this load for a gov :
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=268

I've found bb to be pretty accurate with their velocity quotes and they are getting 850 fps from a 2 inch barrel.

I think 750-800 fps is a reasonable expectation in the gov and 20 + inches of penetration through heavy bone/muscle.

Carried as a secondary for bow season or something I think you could have a lot of versatility with the gov.

defjon said:

That is the great thing here. Swiss army gun that can play more roles.

Other guns can fire snake shot rounds. Sure. Others can reach out further or maybe be more accurate or powerful. To my knowledge I don't know of another platform that can duplicate what it does with 410 buck under 10 yards.

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I think this is a good point. Yeah, there are CCI shotshells for .44 and .45 revolvers, but they hold less shot, smaller shot, and still suffer from the issue of the shot being spun by rifling. I've never seen any side by side testing of a standard .44 or .45 revolver with shotshells and a Judge/Governor, but I'd be inclined to believe the Judges/Govs are going to shoot shot better because they're designed to shoot it.

What is undeniable is there is no revolver other than a .410 chambered one that can shoot 4 pellets of 000 Buck. What effect 4 pellets of 000 Buck can do in terms of self defense has yet to be conclusively determined, but I find it hard to believe taking several pellets to the torso wouldn't be a fatal wound and one that stops an attacker immediately.

If you needed to reach out the 45s in moon clips let you. If you needed to punch through some dangerous critter the hardest wc will do it.

Haven't chrono'd from my gov but even 700-750 fps in a buffalo bore 255 gr hardcast wc would probably do the trick.

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I can't speak to accuracy of .45 ACP in the Governor, some have said it's good, but I need to see more evidence of this. I do know .45 Schofield and .45 Colt are doing alright out of my Public Defender so long as I'm not using lead bullets. I mean, the first cylinder with lead should be fine, but the leading in the Judge happens fast and given most shoot .45 ACP in the Governor, I have no idea if that gun has the leading issues the Judge has.

Since you have one, have you ever noticed if shooting lead .45 Colt leaded the bore? What size are the throats on your Governor? The Taurus Judges are all running .456", which is why I stick to shooting plated reloads in mine.

I don't have a gauge handy but grandpa does so I'll see about getting some measurements.

I don't want to derail this thread, and I'll cave to popular sentiment if you all think this next question should be a new one, but does anyone know of jhp loads for the governor that reliably expand?

45 loads tend to be slower which is why I ask.

I think for close range self defense we think these are probably good with Buck. For bigger critters we think we have loads that should penetrate well.

What if someone wanted or were pressed to carry one for self defense out and about? No way I'd use the 410 federal buck on the street or the hard cast wadcutters. A good hollowpoint is called for.

Plenty of good hollow point loadings 45 colt and 45 acp and I've got those on hand. Even flat point lead 45 colt cowboy loads which is peak performance (if we were in the year 1900).

I wish I was set up to do some tests with calibrated ballistic gel etc. Will say the 185 grain sig v crown 45 colt expand through denim and go at least 12 inches? I don't know.

I've down some cursory searching for jhp testing from judges or govs and not finding my answers yet, but thr is a wealth of knowledge and experience . I've been around since 2005, and now among gun friends I'm like the grizzled gun knowledge veteran thanks to this place, tfl etc.

In answer to my jhp loading question this was an interesting thread :

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/400500-45-colt-loads-s-w-governor.html

Lots of velocity loss, and it looks like they just seem to be designed for the better 410 buck rounds. If no hps will open up I suppose a softer swc 45 colt round wouldn't be like throwing rocks.

https://gunblast.com/SW-Gov.htm#:~:text=My favorite 45 Colt load,over 930 feet per second.

A couple interesting take aways from this older article as well, but again no actual ballistic testing of jhp loads from a governor. Maybe that is just not what people use these for or they aren't designed for it.

"...from a Ransom Machine rest. However, some other ammo did pretty well. Buffalo Bore Plus P 230 grain jacketed hollowpoint grouped five shot clusters into two and one-half inches at twenty-five yards, and the same brand 230 grain FMJ loads did almost as well, as did the Cor-Bon 200 grain hollowpoint ammo. My favorite 45 Colt load for the Governor is the Buffalo Bore standard pressure, low flash 225 grain full wadcutter load. This bullet has a full-caliber flat nose, hits hard, and leaves the muzzle of the Governor at just over 930 feet per second."

If that's true chrono'd from a gov, that wc is truckin'and would probably be a fine defensive choice.. (but still curious about a jhp loading that'll expand and penetrate at gov velocities if anyone has some input).

What’s really sad and quite often overlooked about 410 in a handgun is just how quickly it loses effective power and potential. I have been around a couple of them and at least on paper I was a bit suprised at how well they stayed together, and then an unsuspecting bunny hopped by and he got hit by 2 pellets at 10 yards. He was wounded bad enough to slow him down and 2 more shots put him down as he tried to get away. I would not consider using traditional 410 loads anymore. Pistol specific loads sound like a better fit, but most of the shotgun powders are interchangeable as pistol powders so I am hesitant to believe that the performance increase is enough.

BigBlue 94 said:

A 1/5 oz .410 slug has about double the muzzle energy of a 45acp, but at 50 yards the energy is almost equal.

The judge is only good in my eyes as a snake gun. Otherwise, a smaller revolver can do most of what a judge can.

Click to expand...

Ive read that the slugs hit around 800-900fps out of the judge and 1/5th of an ounce is 88gr. It's also about .387 in diameter

It makes it more like a 380 than a 45. It's only slightly bigger ,.387 vs .355, and going about the same speed.

I agree on the snake gun part. I still think it's funny that most won't recommend a 410 in a shotgun but put less rounds in a gun with a short barrel that weakens the round by a lot and suddenly.......manstopper!

Now....a 12 gauge Judge would be interesting...... Not fun to shoot but interesting

Antihero said:

Now....a 12 gauge Judge would be interesting...... Not fun to shoot but interesting

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Been there, done that. They were called Strikers or Street Sweepers. ATF ruled them DD's.

"No fun for you!"

WestKentucky said:

What’s really sad and quite often overlooked about 410 in a handgun is just how quickly it loses effective power and potential. I have been around a couple of them and at least on paper I was a bit suprised at how well they stayed together, and then an unsuspecting bunny hopped by and he got hit by 2 pellets at 10 yards. He was wounded bad enough to slow him down and 2 more shots put him down as he tried to get away. I would not consider using traditional 410 loads anymore. Pistol specific loads sound like a better fit, but most of the shotgun powders are interchangeable as pistol powders so I am hesitant to believe that the performance increase is enough.

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I agree with all this.

AK103K said:

Been there, done that. They were called Strikers or Street Sweepers. ATF ruled them DD's.

"No fun for you!"

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I never got to fire one sadly, closest I've got is a Shockwave

I have a couple of friends who had them. They are bigger and heavier than the Mossbergs, and a lot more fun to shoot too.

Hopefully those don't go the way of the striker.

They look handy with the new low recoil 12 gauge mini shells.

If I am not using the the 4 pellet 000 buck pistol load in my all Stainless Public Defender , I use 225 grain Federal SWC HP lead .45 Colt ammo which happens to hit point of aim at 15 yards and reaches 740 FPS in the 3" of bore travel . I never ran penetration tests but presume it would deter most anything in lower 48 at 50 feet. I know the Charter Bulldog 3" with the same weight Winchester Silvertip .44 spl ammo at 50 fps more velocity expands some and is a very good load which I've seen used on 200 pound pigs. The Public Defender is slightly larger , not by much.

defjon said:

I don't have a gauge handy but grandpa does so I'll see about getting some measurements

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Please do, I'm very curious to see what the Governor's throats measure to.

I don't want to derail this thread, and I'll cave to popular sentiment if you all think this next question should be a new one, but does anyone know of jhp loads for the governor that reliably expand?

45 loads tend to be slower which is why I ask.

I think for close range self defense we think these are probably good with Buck. For bigger critters we think we have loads that should penetrate well.

What if someone wanted or were pressed to carry one for self defense out and about? No way I'd use the 410 federal buck on the street or the hard cast wadcutters. A good hollowpoint is called for.

Click to expand...

I know of no .45 ACP tests with hollow points with the Governor. I know of gel tests with some .45 Colt JHP that worked from the 2 inch Judge (Winchester PDX1), but those loads are almost tailor made to work from the .410 handguns with the long chambers and short barrels. All .45 ACP is designed to be shot in a semi auto with a barrel length of 3 to 5 inches.

As usual with a short barrel revolver, I think the best solution for when expansion is questionable is to use the Inceptor ARX ammo. The bullet is so light and travels so fast that it tumbles in soft tissue which dumps more energy and decreases the chance of overpenetration. Depending on how it shoots, that's what I'd be using if I wanted to carry a Governor that I could not verify if certain hollow point ammo could expand or I could not get ammo I knew that could.

defjon said:

Hopefully those don't go the way of the striker.

They look handy with the new low recoil 12 gauge mini shells.

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The shockwave?

I have it loaded with aguila mini buckshot so the wife can use it if need be. Holds 9 if I remember right like that.

Super cool guns

Not a lot found yet, but did find this:




Hornady critical defense looks brutal