How come the 1911 was never a "cop's gun"?

ozarkhillbilly said:

My father was on the Highway Patrol from the late 50's to the mid 90s, he was not issued a .357 until the mid 70s and then a glock in the early 90's. He told me he never remembered being issued anything other than hollow points and wad cutters for practice, for any of his several 38's or two issued .357's. We always had several semi-autos around the house but I know that he and the other officers that we knew shot always viewed hollow points superior to FMJ for stoping power. Also nobody we knew at that time had any confidence in 1911's, Hi-Power's or S&W 39's with hollow points of the day, no matter how well they liked the guns.
I am not saying any of these opinions are always correct but I grew up around a lot of police and I know these were widely held beliefs.

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A FMJ .45 Auto vs a .357 Magnum LSWCHP ? I know my choice.

on several trips to mexico before the narko,s took over i saw quite a few 1911,s, mostly in 38 super.

Old Dog said:

The FBI quickly figured out in the '30s that it was under-gunned compared to some of the bank-robbing gangs and adopted several military weapons

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Wasn't part of this particular issue the primary reason for development of the .38 Super? Circa 1929 IIRC, and designed specifically for 1911's.

Prior to the DOJ mandated "reforms" that required standardization of pistols (Glock 17), more than a few Albuquerque Police holsters carried a 1911 pattern pistol, some highly customized.

Plenty of officers/deputies carry 1911s in and around the Denver metro area. Some agencies have grandfathered them in, but those who have them love them. One sergeant I know is going from a 1911 to an STI 2011 in 9mm for the capacity. The standard issue is a Glock or M&P, but some agencies allow personally owned firearms, or may even require you to purchase and maintain your own.

I think it depends on the agency, their policies, and the chief or sheriff. It may also depend on the trainer who teaches firearms, and whether they like 1911s or not.

The other thing to consider is the maintenance that goes into a 1911. You buy an expensive 1911 and it gets rained on, snowed on, and frozen for an officer outside on a perimeter. These are things I wouldn't consider with a polymer framed gun. Not every officer or deputy will put in the time for maintenance.

Ivy Mike said:

Yeah, I was going for a generalization. I'm sure there were departments before the 70s (and the S&W Model 59) that carried autoloaders but the majority seemed to use revolvers with .38 Special. I don't think .357 Magnum was as common though and it would kind of negate the recoil advantage of the revolver over the .45 Auto 1911. Good point on the sights, I hadn't considered that.

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yea, your right overall. One thing i remember from the revolver days, was the idea of qualify/train with 38, miss...uh, shoot with your .357. The rest here is just my opinions...
One thing that wouldn't surprise me, I could imagine one of those "you don't need a weapon of war on the streets" attitude we see today. While I have never heard that about 1911's in general, we have heard that about carbines and rifles in police use. Right up to the North Hollywood shootout, people were saying cops don't need more than a shotgun. Next day, cops need APC's, grenades and masks.
The 1911 also had three reputations that while all untrue, they do endure, and were they true the 1911 would be unsuitable.
1. It's as destructive as a shotgun, and "will blow your arm off with a graze"
2. Its too inaccurate to hit a barn from inside the barn.
3. Its incapable of going more than 4 round without a jam.

1 is just a dumb story, 2 I have met a lot of people who experienced this, mostly from either A:REAALLLLYYY worn out USGI pistols, and B: commercial pistols with bad MIM bushings that didn't fit right. 3 is something I have encountered, and was a product of wadcutter feedlips, and often hollowpoint ammo. Of course those mags wouldn't have been in common use before the 1970's anyway.
Ultimately, I think they stuck with .38/.357 for the same reason Glock ruled the 90's. Colt and S/W had politics, influence, and kickbacks to the big cities, and small cities copied big cities.

Some pretty good posts in this thread about why the 1911 wasn’t a “cops gun” compared to why Colt or S&W 38’s were “cops guns”.

mjsdwash said:

yea, your right overall. One thing i remember from the revolver days, was the idea of qualify/train with 38, miss...uh, shoot with your .357. The rest here is just my opinions...
One thing that wouldn't surprise me, I could imagine one of those "you don't need a weapon of war on the streets" attitude we see today. While I have never heard that about 1911's in general, we have heard that about carbines and rifles in police use. Right up to the North Hollywood shootout, people were saying cops don't need more than a shotgun. Next day, cops need APC's, grenades and masks.
The 1911 also had three reputations that while all untrue, they do endure, and were they true the 1911 would be unsuitable.
1. It's as destructive as a shotgun, and "will blow your arm off with a graze"
2. Its too inaccurate to hit a barn from inside the barn.
3. Its incapable of going more than 4 round without a jam.

1 is just a dumb story, 2 I have met a lot of people who experienced this, mostly from either A:REAALLLLYYY worn out USGI pistols, and B: commercial pistols with bad MIM bushings that didn't fit right. 3 is something I have encountered, and was a product of wadcutter feedlips, and often hollowpoint ammo. Of course those mags wouldn't have been in common use before the 1970's anyway.
Ultimately, I think they stuck with .38/.357 for the same reason Glock ruled the 90's. Colt and S/W had politics, influence, and kickbacks to the big cities, and small cities copied big cities.

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Broadly speaking, from my understanding... cops are the same then as now ... poor tactics, poor shooting; especially in Miami '86 (I think the date is right).

The county I live in has the "big boy" rule. You can carry what you prefer as long as you qualify with it. It was explained to me that if your preferred sidearm is the 1911 you must qualify expert. I know two guys that carry 1911s and they are very squared away individuals.

Very much the exception but I know of at least one small department that outfitted their officers with double stack Para Ordnance 40s with the LDA trigger. This was back in 2004 when the LDA was pretty new.

I’m sure it went down in history as a stupid idea but those guns are quite awesome in both functionality and rarity these days. It’s too bad they are unsupported anymore.

When I started in 1991 there was only one agency in LA county that issued every officer a 1911 .45 ACP, that was El Monte PD. (West Covina PD issued H&K P7 M-13 squeeze-cockers, $$!!) Many agencies allowed individuals to carry the 1911, but EMPD was the only issued-carry one. I will assume that the 1911 manual of arms, the limited training, a serious potential for apathy/complacency with some officers and maybe even the image of cocked pistols riding in holsters had something to do with Chiefs not issuing them or saying no to their people carrying them. Ya gotta remember that most police chiefs are appointed to at-will positions, they can get canned by either a city manager or by a council vote with or without cause at any time with little notice. Sheriff's are usually elected, so bad press can hurt them at election time, too. When someone's income stream, health care benefits and future retirement are tethered to a political body, those people tend to become political animals for survival.

The only ND I dealt with in as a field Sgt. at my former agency was when a SWAT ofc. working on my patrol shift with a 1911 went to a burglary-in-progress call in a condo complex. He stepped through a brick-shattered patio sliding door to go into the condo, as as he did so the remaining glass from overhead let go and landed all over his head/neck. He tightened up (A startle reflex I guess?) and sent a round down through the baseboard of a living room wall. I will assume that the same thing may have happened with a DA/SA or a striker gun in the same situation, but it didn't. The Chief, Captain and many of the Lt's at the time weren't gun-savvy people, so when this incident report went up the chain the Chief wasn't happy at all. All1911's were soon ixnayed from patrol use and then SWAT lost them shortly after.

My current office will allow a 1911 to be carried if it's a quality firearm and the person qualifies with it. The last 1911 a guy bought for duty was a really sweet STI. I guess it wasn't broken in or fired enough to ensure reliability before he brought it in for qualifying. It jammed so many times with 230 gr FMJ with each mag (he had 4!) I failed it. Sadly, the guy who plunked down North of two thousand for the STI went home with an issued Glock 19.

Stay safe.

I took a motorcycle trip through Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana summer before last, and noticed several Sheriffs in those states packing 1911's. Probably the reason the 1911 ever became a popular "cop gun" is that many officers are not "gun-guys". And of course dept. rules, made usually by people who are for sure not gun-guys.

Like others have said, lots of 1911’s in the SW and West. Seen lots in Houston, Dallas, Oklahoma, Arizona, Denver, etc.

Riomouse911 said:

When I started in 1991 there was only one agency in LA county that issued every officer a 1911 .45 ACP, that was El Monte PD. (West Covina PD issued H&K P7 M-13 squeeze-cockers, $$!!) Many agencies allowed individuals to carry the 1911, but EMPD was the only issued-carry one. I will assume that the 1911 manual of arms, the limited training, a serious potential for apathy/complacency with some officers and maybe even the image of cocked pistols riding in holsters had something to do with Chiefs not issuing them or saying no to their people carrying them. Ya gotta remember that most police chiefs are appointed to at-will positions, they can get canned by either a city manager or by a council vote with or without cause at any time with little notice. Sheriff's are usually elected, so bad press can hurt them at election time, too. When someone's income stream, health care benefits and future retirement are tethered to a political body, those people tend to become political animals for survival.

The only ND I dealt with in as a field Sgt. at my former agency was when a SWAT ofc. working on my patrol shift with a 1911 went to a burglary-in-progress call in a condo complex. He stepped through a brick-shattered patio sliding door to go into the condo, as as he did so the remaining glass from overhead let go and landed all over his head/neck. He tightened up (A startle reflex I guess?) and sent a round down through the baseboard of a living room wall. I will assume that the same thing may have happened with a DA/SA or a striker gun in the same situation, but it didn't. The Chief, Captain and many of the Lt's at the time weren't gun-savvy people, so when this incident report went up the chain the Chief wasn't happy at all. All1911's were soon ixnayed from patrol use and then SWAT lost them shortly after.

My current office will allow a 1911 to be carried if it's a quality firearm and the person qualifies with it. The last 1911 a guy bought for duty was a really sweet STI. I guess it wasn't broken in or fired enough to ensure reliability before he brought it in for qualifying. It jammed so many times with 230 gr FMJ with each mag (he had 4!) I failed it. Sadly, the guy who plunked down North of two thousand for the STI went home with an issued Glock 19.

Stay safe.

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CIS is issued Kimbers made to their specs.

When my Dad was a St. Paul PD officer, most of the automatics were kept in officer's back pockets, usually .380's such as Ortgies, Mauser HsC, CZ27, etc. My Dad had a .32 of some sort when I was real young, then got an S&W Model 49, then a 2.5" Python for off duty guns. He kept a Colt Goverment Model .380 for a pocket BUG later, then when the PD switched to Glocks, he bought a 19 to augment the 17 he was issued.
Several of the undercovers, 'narcs' back then, carried Browning Hi-Powers, because it was a gun cops specifically would not carry, so as to not arouse suspicion, and it was common enough in the element they were immersed in.

entropy said:

CIS is issued Kimbers made to their specs.

When my Dad was a St. Paul PD officer, most of the automatics were kept in officer's back pockets, usually .380's such as Ortgies, Mauser HsC, CZ27, etc. My Dad had a .32 of some sort when I was real young, then got an S&W Model 49, then a 2.5" Python for off duty guns. He kept a Colt Goverment Model .380 for a pocket BUG later, then when the PD switched to Glocks, he bought a 19 to augment the 17 he was issued.
Several of the undercovers, 'narcs' back then, carried Browning Hi-Powers, because it was a gun cops specifically would not carry, so as to not arouse suspicion, and it was common enough in the element they were immersed in.

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I'd like to think everyone of every type has carried a snub .38 at some point in time

I have a bit of experience in the military and started my career in law enforcement in the mid 70s so perhaps I could offer a different insight on this. Some of the things I'll mention have been brought up already.

While the military used the 1911 for over 70 years there were in fact very few people who were issued them. Fewer yet got a chance to develop any degree of proficiency with a 1911. Most people in the military shoot their issued weapon once a year for qualification and that's it.

Carrying a 1911 in condition one takes more training than carrying a revolver. The manual of arms with a revolver is "safer". Most police departments back in the 70s were as liability conscious then as they are now. Semiautomatics were thought of as unreliable. The 45 ACP was thought of as a cannon and way too powerful. The 357 waa thought about the same way. Chiefs had the attitude the 38 spl has worked fine for years. Why change it? The bean counters had a lot to say too. Back in the 70s you could buy 2 S&W Model 10s for the price of a new 1911. Limiting officers to one caliber made sense.

There was significant resistance to police adopting hollow points in the 70s. Many agencies didn't get hollow points until much later. NYPD didn't authorize hollow points until the early 90s IIRC. There was also a feeling that if you give police a high capacity handgun they would all wind up "spraying and praying". When NYPD authorized semiautos they were limited to 10 Rd magazines and fmj ammo.

Another big factor was that most semiautomatics were "furrin". The S&W M59 became the sweetheart semiautomatic in the 80s. By the end of the 80s there was a variety of DA/DA semiautomatics on the market.

I remember reading an article by Masaad Ayoob years ago. He said the 1911 was the best combat handgun around. However police use handguns more for "threat management" not combat shooting. He felt a DA/SA semiautomatic was a better handgun for LE. I agree.

Got to chime in here... I figure most of those who've posted up about this are doing so from their own experience (and most here are head and shoulders more skilled and experienced with sidearms than the average officer...). My "police era" was from 1973 to 1995 and my first issued handgun was a heavy barrel model 10 S&W 38 with a four inch barrel (which I still have all these years later since I was allowed to purchase it when I retired...).

Most of the weapons and weapons training for officers is aimed at the lowest common denominator- and that gorgeous old Colt 1911 is not an easy weapon to master - particularly for officers of small stature (women, with - of course the usual exceptions...). My Dad, a career Army officer with 28 years... was an outstanding shot with any rifle he ever shot - but always said that issued .45 was not something he shot well with at all... Just think of what those old issued Army 45's actually came with - doubt I'd have been much better without a ton of practice... As an aside he did two tours in Vietnam (I did one shortened tour) and his duty weapon - a .45...

The thing about police work that most can't get their heads around.. is that many cops will go a full career without ever discharging a firearm at a live target. But all of us will be up close and personal pointing firearms at one or more individuals in every kind of situation from mistaken identity all the way up to a professional bad guy - and everything in between. Each and every time you have to be absolutely certain not to fire a single shot unless it's justified (small, one horse outfits exempted since when you're on your own you have a helluva lot more leeway... than more professional outfits...). That whole shoot / don't shoot problem is not one that the military has to deal with for the average soldier. The discretion part of firearms for cops is very very serious and needs to be enforced with lots of training, careful supervision, and serious discipline from day one.... Anything that might possibly interfere with it has very bad potential consequences. No police manager will last long if they disregard it in the slightest... so yes, you'll find outfits and individuals in police work that did carry and might still carry a Colt .45 - but they'd better be particularly skilled and competent...

In my era we were issued that standard revolver mentioned above... once you cleared probation you could carry anything you could qualify with - as long as it was a revolver that only used 38 rounds. That changed for us since all of this was in south Florida at a time when things were going south (serious understatement..). When I made sergeant after five years I really did consider that I might have to back up one of my officers facing automatic weapons fire on the street - and things just kept getting worse since we were having trouble - and the "cocaine cowboys" hadn't even made an appearance yet... In those early years, all of our firearms training was directed by our local FBI office - with basic qualification it's only purpose - along with all the usual stuff about legal responsibility for every round fired on the street... When I was a young sergeant I spoke to my lieutenant about the firearms training - we weren't getting and was told that as long as the FBI was our source - we'd never been successfully sued for a shooting.... Not exactly a ringing endorsement (and we were only a small department with an authorized strength of 100 sworn - that we rarely reached...).

As the environment we worked in changed (again serious understatement) we were facing a much higher threat level (along with a lot more shooters, many of them had us seriously out-gunned with high capacity 9mm handguns and every kind of automatic weapon from something out of WWII - all the up to the latest in military hardware.... and many of them not from south Florida so that they could shoot and be on a plane back home -before the first bodies were even found... My agency then allowed all of us to pretty much choose our own weapons - with two caveats - any auto pistol had to be double action (no single actions allowed - that meant no Browning Hi-power, or any Colt 45's...once again our lawyers were directing our choices). and you could use any four inch revolver you chose - but no magnum rounds... Smith & Wesson heavy frame revolvers in 45 long Colt and 44 special became popular... About four years into that era we finally got a chief with serious intent and we upgraded in every sense of the word - finally becoming the first nationally accredited agency in Dade county (now called Metro Dade county). With fully standardized weaponry and all -- every officer was issued a 40 cal Sig Sauer P229 sidearm with night sights (and each officer could purchase and carry a Sig in either 9mm or .45 calibers if they chose and could demonstrate proficiency... ). Our SRT was equipped with MP5 weapons, fully suppressed of course... and our training was molded into something to be proud of finally -with an Officer Survival training progream that was good enough that other agencies asked for our trainers to come to their departments and provide what we'd learned to their officers... I'd like to think I had something to do with that since I was in charge of training for a few years towards the end of my career once I'd made lieutenant...

I'll stop here since I could go on and on about this topic... but once again outstanding shooters prefer that old Colt 45 - and I don't doubt them in the slightest - but time moves on and today's weapons were built on what older weapons could do - and what they couldn't do - so it's not all bad. Police work is it's own world and quite a bit different than most would think from what they've seen and all the mis-information that popular culture sends our way. I've been retired now for over 25 years and haven't carried a sidearm even once in all those years. If that's a poor choice I'll be the first one to learn about it...

Howland937 said:

I'm guessing cost as much as anything else.

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That was my guess too. 6 rounds vs 7 and faster reloads probably wasn't with the premium to them. I wonder what a new smith or colt 38 costed compared to a new 1911 in each decade. Way before my time though . The 1911 may well have costed less by the end of ww2 when so many had been made.

There was also, and still is the train of thought that revolvers are more reliable. I STILL know guys who say that. As a basement gunsmith and a lifetime gun study im not a believer personally. I see both sides though. Ive not seen many revolvers jam per se. But ive seen enough to know that when they do its usually a catastrophic failure. Not a simple tap and rack endeavor. And in some situations they are more likely to fail than an auto.

Of course that is since the 90s. So our ammo and such may be that much better than it used to be. Semi autos may have been worse back then. I hear the same thing about the classic cars. People say they didn't get 200-300k back then because the oil was trash and the roads were terrible. I do know that most I have restored were full of sludge. Nasty stuff that no newer vehicle ive ever pulled apart has had. Even the ones that run super tech oil for 20k miles between changes.

Monac said:

down South.

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I'm down south. Been all over down south. Va (although we no longer claim them...they are officially north now. Lol) FL,NC,SC and TN. Ive been in GA a bit but not enough to count it. Ive seen multiple agencies train. Never seen or heard of a 1911 outside of a SWAT team (or whichever letters that particular agency preferred). One of those I saw personally (a TRP) and the other was a guy from near Miami who said they had them.

Old Dog said:

couple Thompsons

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I work in a different city and state than I live. The town is a small dot on the map with a population of around 2k. I know and have shot with a few of their LEO. They still have, or did have around 05, at least one Thompson. I know they had it since before the 80s. (That's the oldest officer still around that I know. ) so yeah some LEO definitely didn't carry police positives and a winchester 12. Even tiny 2-3 officer counties.

GRIZ22 said:

Fewer yet got a chance to develop any degree of proficiency with a 1911.

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True. We had two good 1911 shooters on our unit team for the post (Ft. Ord) pistol matches. Myself (I had a decent amount of experience with the 1911 prior to enlisting, thanks to one of my Dad's friends who indulged my interests in military weapons.) and the BN XO, who had been a pistol competitor for many years. His issue pistol was a 1911 (not A1), and it was the best one in the Arms Room for accuracy.

lemaymiami said:

and that gorgeous old Colt 1911 is not an easy weapon to master

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No, it is not. And it requires regular upkeep of practice, especially if one shoots other pistols in the interim.

lemaymiami said:

and that gorgeous old Colt 1911 is not an easy weapon to master - particularly for officers of small stature (women, with - of course the usual exceptions...). My Dad, a career Army officer with 28 years... was an outstanding shot with any rifle he ever shot - but always said that issued .45 was not something he shot well with at all... Just think of what those old issued Army 45's actually came with - doubt I'd have been much better without a ton of practice... As an aside he did two tours in Vietnam (I did one shortened tour) and his duty weapon - a .45...

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We had 3 females who were issued 1911A1's as their weapon. Two of them routinely bolo'd the first try every year at quals, and I'd have to coach them through to qualifiying. The other was a hard-charging Airborne grad, she was a decent shot with hers.

When we got a new BN CO, he bolo'd his first (and only) qual with the .45 also. He was an aviator, a dustoff pilot, his whole career until then. (He still flew enough hours to keep his flight status, but wasn't expected to fly missions) He had been issued revolvers up until then. He owned a .357 Mag. which he shot whenever he got home on leave, but did not make quals with the 1911A1. So I coached him through to qualifying also. He only had to qualify with the 1911A1 once, as shortly after he took command, we switched over to the M9. The only good thing I can say about the M9 is that nobody bolo'd their pistol quals after that, and I finally shot a perfect score. I'd still rather take a 1911 into combat. I do not nor ever will own an Beretta 92 series pistol, though the Taurus 92 types with the frame safety are not out of the question.

I knew a man that had inherited a Colt Gov 1911-45 ACP from a Texas Ranger that passed away about 40 years ago. The gun was standard GI issue, showed plenty of holster wear & had a thin strap of rawhide tied around the grip safety that I assume was intended to disengage it permanently (perhaps someone here can elaborate more on that). It appears that the 1911 was a common choice among the Texas Rangers a few years back.

Charlie Martinez said:

I knew a man that had inherited a Colt Gov 1911-45 ACP from a Texas Ranger that passed away about 40 years ago. The gun was standard GI issue, showed plenty of holster wear & had a thin strap of rawhide tied around the grip safety that I assume was intended to disengage it permanently (perhaps someone here can elaborate more on that). It appears that the 1911 was a common choice among the Texas Rangers a few years back.

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The leather strip holding down the grip safety was not an uncommon sight from what I have read of the Texas Rangers. I have seen photos of several different specimens.

Sistema1927 said:

Prior to the DOJ mandated "reforms" that required standardization of pistols (Glock 17), more than a few Albuquerque Police holsters carried a 1911 pattern pistol, some highly customized.

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Before I retired I worked extensively with APD in Albuquerque, predominantly with the bomb squad. I remember many of them lamenting having to give up their 1911’s for another weapon. IIRC they did not wholesale switch to Glocks, they went Springfield or S&W...don’t recall which.

Longmire carries one, enuff said.

Monac said:

maybe it was more common out West or down South.

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That's my experience.
Was extremely rare to not see a Texas Ranger with anything but a 1911. Usually done up fancy for the "court gun" too, with a matching Trusty-made holster.
Now, .38super was as common as .45acp--which you could sometimes tell by the spare mags (one wanted to take care being greasy-eyed about a Ranger's gear, as such attention got noticed).

Ernie Bass said:

Longmire carries one, enuff said.

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Detective Joe Kenda