223 brass prep question

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kmw1954

kmw1954

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Suppose this really isn't specific to 223 but this is the latest issue I have come across in my short time reloading bottleneck brass.

Was processing a "lot bunch" of the 223 brass I have started and and while sizing it I came upon this issue and don't know what to make of it. After sizing I drop the case into a Lyman case headspace gauge. This gauge is new as I was previously using the Hornady gauge that I wasn't really comfortable with. I wasn't comfortable because with my first round of reloads out of 120 rounds I had 8 with a FTF even though it looked like a normal primer strike. With that someone suggested it could be a headspace issue.

So with this "Lot" of 140 pcs I came across 10 pieces that wouldn't seat down all the way in the Lyman gauge yet when put into the Hornady gauge they dropped right in and out kind of like a plunk test and did fully seat.

Hope this makes sense and is not too convoluted. Anyways I don't know what to make of this. I will try to answer any questions you folks may have.
 
Walkalong said:
Failure to fire? It's a 99.9% chance the primers were not seated deeply enough.
Click to expand...

Mostly I would agree except in this case. Each round was finished one step at a time, every primer was inspected before the powder was dropped and each round the powder was weigh checked and then a bullet was placed and seated. But anyways that isn't the issue in question. The question is in regards to the case gauges and the case fitting in one but not the other.
 
Simply differences in inside diameter would be my guess. Both show the same as far as headspace? Or is one so mall in diameter the cases won't go in?

Primers aren't seated deeply enough. :)
 
Gauges have a tolerance, like anything machined. It’s possible one gauge is “tight” and the other is “loose”.

But your gauges are not why you are having FTF, in my opinion. I’m thinking like walkalong, primer seating related.

OR

Somethings up with your gun.

My reasoning is that your firing pin travel is on the order of tenths of an inch. The spec for your gages is on the order of thousands of an inch.
 
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The gun is a Savage Axis and from what I have found on the Savage forum is there is an inherent issue with this gun with this caliber and FTF. Seems to be related to the firing pin spring. Also I am using CCI #41 primers for the first time and understand they are quite hard and differ from regular Small Rifle primers.. All the ones that did not fire have deep, full firing pin strikes.

With the Hornady they drop all the way and measure between the high and low, the Lyman they drop to just about even with the rim. The rest that do drop fully also measure between the high and low. The first few batches I loaded using the Hornady gauge all chambered just fine in the gun. The brass in this case is once fired Lake City that I have collected from the benches at work and most like;y were fired in a semi-auto.
 
So to kick the dead horse again;
What’s your method of priming?

if the duds have deep indentations they should’ve fired, unless the primers anvil wasn’t fully seated.
 
Gauges are made to represent the tightest chamber possible.(probably not your chamber.) I always get a few that won't go in all the way. but they fire just fine anyway. Be aware that the slightest bit of tumbling media in the gauge will also keep the round from plunking in. If any of my cases fail to go in the last .020" they go in the trash. Brass is too cheap to worry about.
 
H&R Glock said:
Gauges are made to represent the tightest chamber possible.(probably not your chamber.) I always get a few that won't go in all the way. but they fire just fine anyway. Be aware that the slightest bit of tumbling media in the gauge will also keep the round from plunking in. If any of my cases fail to go in the last .020" they go in the trash. Brass is too cheap to worry about.
Click to expand...

Those 10 are set aside until I am finished with this but while up trimming this brass I started to wonder why they all didn't size the same. They were all run thru the same Full Length sizing die. They are sized on an RCBS JR3 press. Also they haven't made it to the tumbler yet. that will be the next step after they are trimmed.

Can't argue about the cost of brass.
 
This is a bolt gun right. you really cant tell by looking at a primer that is fully seated or not since there is tolerance for the pockets depth. The correct depth is when they bottom out + a little more to pre load the anvil.

How are the rounds fitting the chamber of your gun? Have you determined where you need to be on shoulder position? If you over size you will be having to seat the round further into the chamber making it harder for the FP to hit the primer.
 
FWIW I bought a Savage Axis 223 from the Walmart close out sale. It refuses to fire about 30% of the American Eagle 62 grain factory rounds I used to sight it in. It’s 100% with my reloads and with S&B or Winchester factory. No idea why. I disassembled and cleaned the bolt/firing pin channel but it made no difference. The primers appeared to be getting a full depth strike on the dud rounds.
 
Blue68f100 said:
How are the rounds fitting the chamber of your gun? Have you determined where you need to be on shoulder position? If you over size you will be having to seat the round further into the chamber making it harder for the FP to hit the primer.
Click to expand...

So far everything I have loaded has chambered easily. Chamber headspace is the reason I bought the Lyman gauge, it came highly recommended when I started this. At first I bought the Hornady gauge because the Lyman was OS everywhere.

I tried the tape on the cartridge trick to judge headspace but I couldn't get it to work. Couldn't get the tape trimmed off evenly.
I asked about the head-spacing on the Savage forum and was given the same response about excessive headspace and asked that wouldn't that look like a light primer strike. Received no reply to that question.

Elkins45 as I recall from the Savage forum it is said to be a weak firing pin spring and there is a replacement. I also just looked and there were 3 Federal American Eagle 55gr in the bunch that did not fire also.
 
I didn't see a response did you try any of the "duds" a second time ? It's not impossible to have a bad primer or something else, but most of the time the primers are not seated deep enough. First strike seats them and second try will ignite them.

-Jeff
 
OK, One AGAIN

Have you tried to fire the "duds" a second time??

Also, WHY are you using #41 primers in a bolt action rifle?? . They are not needed and really not even needed in a semi auto unless it is full auto,
 
Sorry folks to get rude but I am not concerned here with the FTF. No matter what all of you may think this is NOT a High Primer issue. Which always seems to the the go to cause. As has been stated there is a known issue with these guns and FTF, I just have not delved into that yet. Also I am questioning the use of these CCI #41 primers in this gun.

Yes A few of them have been run thru and fired a second time with no joy. At this time I do not have any other primers to try in here because of the currant shortage. Kind of stuck with what I have.

I was of the understanding that the Lyman Headspace gauge would reliably gauge the resized cases. All cases, yes that means every one has been put thru this Lyman gauge and the ones that do not seat are then tried in the Hornady gauge where they do fully seat. At this time that is the only method I have to check headspace.
 
OK here is a tip:

Take the brass that did fire in the gun. Forget the gauge. Neck Size the brass only, charge it , seat the bullet and then shot it. Do they work??

The brass will be fire formed to your chamber and the neck will not grow much, so even trimming will be reduced.
 
Things to try, take a couple of pieces of brass fired with full loads in your rifle and see where the shoulder is. If the rifle has excess mechanical headspace you can size to fit the chamber instead of the gauge and eliminate excess head clearance.

People do this with .303 British in Enfields all the time
 
From reading your original post and your later replys I think you may have a combination of problems. I don't know much about Savages but with a known issue concerning firing and the harder primers this may be your problem. I seriously doubt that headspace is the problem but I guess its possible, just not probable. If not a rifle problem this type of issue is with the primer not being seated fully.

There are so many different headstamps on 223's now that I have found the specs to be all over the place. I just prepped 1050 odd headstamped 223's and I got various amounts of brass shavings out of the primer pocket when I uniformed them. Some were so deep that my cutting tool didn't touch the bottom of the pocket while others generated so many chips that seating a primer would have been difficult. One headstamp had such loose pockets that I scrapped them.

Just a polite reminder, your gauges may not be the same spec as your chamber. I mean, just because they fit or don't fit your gauges may not relate to your rifle.
 
Everyone seems to be stuck on the FTF Issue which was not the reason for this thread and now I am sorry I even brought that aspect up. The FTF is a completely separate issue from the question I am trying to ask and sorry but I will no longer reply to questions or comments about the FTF in this thread.

After again thinking about this issue the real question is about sizing this brass. This is all Lake City 19 and the process used on this was exactly this; decapped with a Universal Die, hot water washed with dish soap and Lemi-Shine, primer pockets reamed with a Hornady small primer reamer, primer pockets uniformed with a RCBS small uniform tool, lubed with Hornady Universal, sized with a Lee sizing die on an RCBS JR3 press, dropped into the Lyman case gauge.

Now as up until recently all I have ever reloaded were pistol cases I never had to experience full length resizing and moving a shoulder. Since everything was done the same on the same bench with the same tools how can there be such a large difference in the final product, case size? I would think everything would come out the same or very close. I have never experienced this with pistol brass.
 
Could be as simple as slightly different alloys between cases, leading to some cases springing back more than the others.
 
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