BULLEYE Smokeless powder Question

You might get better answers about loading smokeless powder on the Reloading and Handloading part of the forum. As the name implies, this is the Black Powder section of the forum.

Just a suggestion,
Dave

Pocket said:

There is an encyclopedia on here about the NAA Companion and Super Compaion.

Several of the threads and posts refer to a 1 grain and a 2 grain scoop for the BullsEye smokeless powder.

I don't have a scale, so I am asking does or is there a commercial scoop that would work to measure 1 grain or 2 grains of the B.E. ?

There was also reference to using empty 22 brass. I believe there was also a reference to a 22 short brass.

Is there any measurements for using a
22lr or a 22 short to dyi such a scoop?

Click to expand...

Pocket,
McGunner stated in post #6:

"A full length .22 short case throws 1.8 grains."

And in posts #12 and #13 Mcgunner replied to a question by andrewstorm:

Question: "2 gr bulls eye ,is that the same as 3 cc scoops that come with the pistol, measure by volume?

Reply: "The scoop measures 2.4 grains by weight bullseye. I'm tossing these home made scoops (from .22 cases) onto an electronic scale for weighing. I've fired a NAA supplied scoop full just to see what it'd do, but I didn't have the chronograph with me. Saw no immediate leading of the bore and didn't feel much different than 2.0 grains. I plan to chronograph a 2.4 grain charge, but it might be fast enough to lead the bore. It certainly didn't harm the gun in any way that I could tell. Nipples unscrewed with ease and caps were in tact and would not fall out when the cylinder was removed...."

Both posts are on the same page: --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/im-lovin-this-super-companion.511092/

I think that you should try to find one of the compact electronic pocket scales that are sold in many tobacco shops and convenience stores.
Even some gas stations sell them.
You should be able to find one for under $20.

That's too funny.... Pocket needs a Pocket Scale!!!!
Be careful and be safe.
I don't know which NAA scoop that he's referring to or if there's more than one NAA scoop size since he has 2 different NAA C&B models.

McGunner was very clear that his home made scoops were adjusted to equal weighed charges that he put on a scale, and that all charges were by weight and not volume.
You need a scale to verify your charge weights.

Lees powder scoop set starts at .3CC which throws a 1.7 grain charge of BE. (From memory). Amazon is one source.

whughett said:

Lees powder scoop set starts at .3CC which throws a 1.7 grain charge of BE. (From memory). Amazon is one source.

Click to expand...

Okay.
About the weight of Bullseye thrown by the NAA scoop.
In post #12 andrewstorm asked:

"2 gr bulls eye ,is that the same as 3 cc scoops that come with the pistol, measure by volume?"

McGunner replied in Post #13:

"The scoop measures 2.4 grains by weight bullseye. I'm tossing these home made scoops (from .22 cases) onto an electronic scale for weighing. I've fired a NAA supplied scoop full just to see what it'd do, but I didn't have the chronograph with me. Saw no immediate leading of the bore and didn't feel much different than 2.0 grains. I plan to chronograph a 2.4 grain charge, but it might be fast enough to lead the bore. It certainly didn't harm the gun in any way that I could tell. Nipples unscrewed with ease and caps were in tact and would not fall out when the cylinder was removed....."

I don't know if andewstorm left out the point in .3, he probably did.
But the supplied NAA scoop throws 2.4 grains of weighed Bullseye.
Whichever scoop that is.
I will edit my post above to reflect that.

Buy a scale.

When dealing with very small amounts of Smokeless powder, using a scoop can be inaccurate and inconsistent.

It's one thing when you need about 35 or so grains of Black Powder. Not so great when you need just 1 or 2 grains of Smokeless.

For the sake of paying it forward I have a Lee scale I'll send you for the price of USPS small box shipping. PM if you're interested!

Smiles,

Scoops are volume measures. It’s anyone’s guess how many millions of rounds of every caliber are loaded every year by the use of volume powder measures. Any good powder measure will throw charges within a 1/10 if a grain of better.

whughett said:

Scoops are volume measures. It’s anyone’s guess how many millions of rounds of every caliber are loaded every year by the use of volume powder measures. Any good powder measure will throw charges within a 1/10 if a grain of better.

Click to expand...

Generally speaking, when using a conventional powder measure, which measures by volume, the powder is dumped into a chamber of fixed size. The size of the charge is limited because the charge is completely contained within the volume of the powder measure. So charges thrown with a conventional powder measure tend to be very consistent. Even so, charges thrown with a conventional powder measure can vary slightly, sometimes depending on how consistently the operator throws the lever on the measure. When I am loading Smokeless I make an effort to keep the motion I use to throw the lever consistent, so the powder will pack into the powder measure consistently. Doing so, I can usually keep my charges within about .2 grains of each other.

Scoops are completely different. They are not enclosed as a conventional powder measure is. They are open on top. Consistency with scoops is very dependent on how consistently one uses the scoop. When using a Lee dipper with Black Powder I strive to dredge the dipper through the powder consistently, like scooping ice cream out of a container, as consistently as possible. I then use a piece of card to scrape off the powder even with the top edge of the dipper. Doing this with a fairly large dipper, such as the 2.2CC dipper I often use with my BP 45 Colt loads, I still get a deviation of 1 or 2 grains with every charge if I bother to measure them. With a fairly large charge of Black Powder, 1 or 1 grains is insignificant. With very small Smokeless charges, particularly with Bullseye, a deviation of a few tenths of a grain could easily make the difference between a safe load and an overcharge, depending on the actual recipe.

For this reason, I never use dippers for Smokeless powder, particularly with small charges.

A two-grain bullseye charge is small. You can sweep, push a dipper down into the power, you strike the powder level with the top of the dipper, you can give the dipper shake to level the top. or leave a mound and not level the powder. All these things will make different charges out of one dipper. It is best to use a small digital powder scale with a pan funnel and work with the dipper with a little practice you will be toughing really accurate charges.

As far as I know....all measures are volumetric. There is a container of some sort that gets filled with powder.....some are adjustable via a screw in/out piston some are fixed (scoops).
The important thing is to weigh each charge dropped - at least the first five or ten - so you know what the range is of the charges that you are dropping.

In my 40+ years of reloading experience, when using Bullseye or any other extremely fast burning powder in minute amounts, you better WEIGH EACH AND EVERY CHARGE. The margins for error are slim to the point of not being there at all.

whughett said:

Scoops are volume measures. It’s anyone’s guess how many millions of rounds of every caliber are loaded every year by the use of volume powder measures. Any good powder measure will throw charges within a 1/10 if a grain of better.

Click to expand...

My father gave me an old adjustable measure long ago. I broke it one day and replaced it with another one that also has a pour spout and found that my NMA’s 30 grn charge of 3F Olde E weighed 33-35 grns. My new measure sits at 35 for the same weight of powder. The silly thing that came in my Cabela’s starter doesn’t even come close to matching (throws very light).

I just recently measured the remaining space in the chambers of my loaded NMA. I lightly tap a couple of times and level off with the spout. What I found was as much as 0.214” and as little as 0.131” for a difference of 0.085” or over a 1/16” which I’d think was more than a 2 grn difference. Kinda makes me want to measure 6 different throws and see what I see. Maybe when I get to the range I should try pre weighed charges. I have plenty of rubber tubes for this. With average skills I wonder if I’d even be able to tell the difference.

Now if you’re speaking of this smokeless application you’ve caught me in an ignorant spot.

Pete D. said:

As far as I know....all measures are volumetric. There is a container of some sort that gets filled with powder.....some are adjustable via a screw in/out piston some are fixed (scoops).

Click to expand...

The important difference is that the volumetric measures built into a powder measure completely contain the powder charge.

This is the powder measure on my Hornady Lock & Load AP.








These are the inserts that go into the rotor. I keep different ones set for different amounts of powder. The point is, a powder measure like this completely surrounds the volume of powder that enters it.






When I load Black Powder on my Hornady press I use a Lyman Black Powder measure.






The rotor inside these also completely surrounds the powder charge.





I have an RCBS powder measure too that I use if I am loading Smokeless on my single stage press. No photo, but it too completely surrounds the powder charge.



A dipper or a scoop does not completely surround the powder charge, they are open on top.So right away you are asking inaccuracy to creep into the loading process when using a dipper or a scoop. Yes, one can try to use a dipper as consistently as possible, but even with the best technique, they will always be less consistent than a powder measure that completely surrounds the powder charge. I do not hesitate to use dippers with Black Powder, because generally speaking, unless one is shooting large single shot cartridges such as 45-70 long distance for great precision, a variation of a grain or two of Black Powder does not matter very much. Smokeless Powder is more powerful than Black Powder, the charges are much smaller. The inconsistency between dipped charges with Smokeless is much more crucial than it is with Black Powder. Particularly with a powder like Bullseye where the charges are so small. A very small error could easily turn a max load of Bullseye into a bomb.

rodwha said:

My father gave me an old adjustable measure long ago. I broke it one day and replaced it with another one that also has a pour spout and found that my NMA’s 30 grn charge of 3F Olde E weighed 33-35 grns. My new measure sits at 35 for the same weight of powder. The silly thing that came in my Cabela’s starter doesn’t even come close to matching (throws very light).

I just recently measured the remaining space in the chambers of my loaded NMA. I lightly tap a couple of times and level off with the spout. What I found was as much as 0.214” and as little as 0.131” for a difference of 0.085” or over a 1/16” which I’d think was more than a 2 grn difference. Kinda makes me want to measure 6 different throws and see what I see. Maybe when I get to the range I should try pre weighed charges. I have plenty of rubber tubes for this. With average skills I wonder if I’d even be able to tell the difference.

Now if you’re speaking of this smokeless application you’ve caught me in an ignorant spot.

Click to expand...

My own black powder shooting will never approach anything some respondents on this forum are capable of, so Lee scoops are what I use. 1.6 to 2.2 CC’s being the most used. Even in 45C loads of black.

Center fire however is alway a Dillon powder measure adjusted with a balance beam. Have never seen it deviate by more that a tick mark on the beams pointer.