Getting some nasty copper fouling with loads, need advice.

Typetwelve · Nov 9, 2020

So here's the data. After fighting issues with factory lead projectiles in 44 magnum, I decided to go 100% to Zero's 240g SJSP projectiles. These here:

http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchan...D&Product_Code=R177-A&Category_Code=ZBJ-44MAG

I've been loading them over 23g of H110 and running those through my Henry. I'm getting an average of 1603 fps from those loads, and they're fairly accurate.

I was noting that my accuracy was really going downhill so I did a hard inspection and noted the barrel to have some serious copper fouling. I spent over an hour cleaning it out of the barrel with Montana X-Treme Copper Killer, which is some serious stuff, BTW.

I took the Henry out on sat with those Zero loads and my first two 5-shot groups were dead-nut. As I shot them, the groups began to open up. I only ran about 35 or so rounds through it. Taking it home, I examined that barrel and sure enough, pretty nasty copper fouling again.

I guess, long story short, am I pushing these projectiles too fast? Should I be getting that kind of fouling so quickly?

ColtPythonElite · Nov 9, 2020

I am wondering how smooth or not smooth the barrel is in your rifle.

fotheringill · Nov 9, 2020

In a word, no. That seems really fast to me. BTW- Are you using a brass jag? If so, you are getting false positive readings. Pick up an aluminum jag and get a definitive reading. If no false readings, it probably is something else adversely affecting accuracy.

Typetwelve · Nov 9, 2020

fotheringill said:
In a word, no. That seems really fast to me. BTW- Are you using a brass jag? If so, you are getting false positive readings. Pick up an aluminum jag and get a definitive reading. If no false readings, it probably is something else adversely affecting accuracy.

Really fast as in how fast it's fouling? Or the loads I'm making?

As for the jag, no, plastic...and a nylon brush.

I originally noted it when I was shining the muzzle end of the barrel of the flashlight and saw the obvious copper fouling.

fotheringill · Nov 9, 2020

Plastic and nylon, no false positives. Fast in copper fouling. Did you ask Henry? They absolutely will speak with you on the phone. Did you use a bore scope? If so, is there also a carbon ring lurking in there?

Typetwelve · Nov 9, 2020

fotheringill said:
Plastic and nylon, no false positives. Fast in copper fouling. Did you ask Henry? They absolutely will speak with you on the phone. Did you use a bore scope? If so, is there also a carbon ring lurking in there?

No, not yet. I was going to give her a good cleaning again later this week and see exactly how much fouling there is after less than 50 rounds. If ti's bad, I may call Henry. My only thing about calling them is the whole reloading part, most will ask what kind of ammo I'm using and the second they hear that, game over.

No, I do not have a bore scope...might be a good idea to look into one eventually.

AJC1 · Nov 9, 2020

No idea how old the gun is but lead is very soft for lapping the barrel. You may have to go through this a series of times if the barrel is low round count. There are products like tub dust to help polish if a ruff barrel is the issue.

denton · Nov 9, 2020

I can't prove it, but I think that the mechanism that produces fouling is this: Small irregularities in the barrel scrape off copper. When the next round comes through, the irregularity is bigger, and it scrapes off even more copper. Only the first bullet after cleaning contributes to reducing the irregularities.

I have a 100 year old Swedish Mauser that fouled excessively. I cleaned the bejabbers out of it, fired one round, and cleaned again. After a couple of dozen rounds I wasn't getting much copper out, so I switched to firing three rounds between cleaning. Four or five cleanings later, I called it good. That rifle now fouls much, much less.

Something like that might help your situation.

Captcurt · Nov 9, 2020

Sounds like you may have some rough tooling marks. Only a borescope can tell you for sure. I would lap the barrel with Iosso and see if it helps.

Toprudder · Nov 9, 2020

I’m wondering if the loss in accuracy may be from the barrel heating up.

tightgroup tiger · Nov 9, 2020

You beat me to it. Also if probably has something holding the end of the front stock close to the barrel and lever actions are notorious for being able to only shoot about three rounds, then open the bolt and let the barrel cool down. This steel ring is around the outside of the barrel will distort the barrel wihen it starts to heat up.

243winxb · Nov 9, 2020

Zero Bullets are listed as .431" diameter. Fat Bullets. Last i looked 44 jacketed bullets came is 3 different diameters. Your 431 makes it 4.

Speer .429" , Sierra .4295" & Hornady 430" Try a good bullet of a smaller diameter, before placing blame on the rifle.

Sierra is listed on there website at .4295"

AJC1 · Nov 9, 2020

243winxb said:
Zero Bullets are listed as .431" diameter. Fat Bullets. Last i looked 44 jacketed bullets came is 3 different diameters. Your 431 makes it 4.

Speer .429" , Sierra .4295" & Hornady 430" Try a good bullet of a smaller diameter, before placing blame on the rifle.

Sierra is listed on there website at .4295"

The 429 vs 431 groove in rifle vs pistol always makes me scratch my head

243winxb · Nov 9, 2020

A lead slug pushed down the barrel measured .429 inch in diameter.

Henry Big Boy.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/longgun_reviews_henry_111706/100364

Is the Zero jacketed bullet swaged using cartridge brass?

Toprudder · Nov 10, 2020

I’ve had good luck with Zero JSP bullets in my Rossi 44 rifle, pushed to 1800fps. I usually don’t shoot more than 20-30 rounds on a trip to the range, though.

Bfh_auto · Nov 10, 2020

If you're getting that much fouling. You need to look into lapping the barrel.
There are multiple ways of doing this.

fotheringill · Nov 12, 2020

TypeTwelve-

You don't need to spend a gazillion dollars on a bore scope. See Teslong's line of products. You can view on a cell phone, computer or even your super duper 86" TV depending on which you might get. They range in cost from about $50 to around $100 ( I think that is correct for the $100). I was amazed at detail and clarity.

peeplwtchr · Nov 14, 2020

fotheringill said:
Plastic and nylon, no false positives. Fast in copper fouling. Did you ask Henry? They absolutely will speak with you on the phone. Did you use a bore scope? If so, is there also a carbon ring lurking in there?

Carbon ring? Never heard of this. Where would it be, what does it look like, and what does it indicate?

fotheringill · Nov 16, 2020

Fouling build up near the chamber mouth. What color are your wet patches after you run them through?

peeplwtchr · Nov 16, 2020

fotheringill said:
TypeTwelve-

You don't need to spend a gazillion dollars on a bore scope. See Teslong's line of products. You can view on a cell phone, computer or even your super duper 86" TV depending on which you might get. They range in cost from about $50 to around $100 ( I think that is correct for the $100). I was amazed at detail and clarity.

I got one on amazon for $50. They plu into your phone to use as the monitor.

Getting some nasty copper fouling with loads, need advice.

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