It's a common misunderstanding. The shot may rise relative to the line of sight, so it may strike higher than the point or aim. As you note, it can't rise relative to the line of the bore.
“Just point it at them”
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kBob
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natman,
actually with a shotgun individual shot pellets CAN rise above the line of the bore just as they can strike left or right or further below the line of the bore than poorly thought out math would indicate.
A .33 caliber pellet that had its last contact with the bottom of of a .72 caliber bore can certainly leave the muzzle with an upward vector.
A well made rifle and well made bullet would follow your rules...but not a shotgun firing shot.
all you have to do is shoot a shotgun a bit and you will see this.
-kBob
actually with a shotgun individual shot pellets CAN rise above the line of the bore just as they can strike left or right or further below the line of the bore than poorly thought out math would indicate.
A .33 caliber pellet that had its last contact with the bottom of of a .72 caliber bore can certainly leave the muzzle with an upward vector.
A well made rifle and well made bullet would follow your rules...but not a shotgun firing shot.
all you have to do is shoot a shotgun a bit and you will see this.
-kBob
to be fair, every person I have heard say that was also advocating the use of #8 shot, and that DOES scatter a little more. Your not wrong, but your giving to much credit to the people who say that.
I once had a friend who was absolutely convinced that birdshot was the do-all end-all killer of everything. One day, at 30 yards I challenged him to shoot a board down with his 12-gauge. I didn't move. I then shot it down from the same distance with my .380. He accepted buckshot after that.
I once had a friend who was absolutely convinced that birdshot was the do-all end-all killer of everything. One day, at 30 yards I challenged him to shoot a board down with his 12-gauge. I didn't move. I then shot it down from the same distance with my .380. He accepted buckshot after that.
swingmaster
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If you read post #8 carefully, it is stated that the pattern “rises”. That is a lot different from saying that the pattern spreads. Trajectory, not spreading, is being discussed there.
“. One other thing that was pointed out to us isn't something that's spoken about much - and that is the pattern did rise slightly from that level plane as the pellets went through paper... Years later I always made a point of counselling young officers to always aim slightly low in a real life confrontation - both to compensate for any rise in trajectory but also to compensate for most folks shooting a bit high under severe stress...”
FL-NC
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Just point it? Then why do I miss so many doves? Why do I have to take such careful aim to kill a turkey?
swingmaster
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Palladan44
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At 10 yards the shot was still basically a prefragmented slug. At 15 yards it had started to open up into about a 2-3” group.
I agree. Im of the opinion that a buckshot shotgun needs to be aimed just like any other single projectile weapon. If you miss your aim, let the shotgun help you out a little by spreading out and get some pellets at least on target (so you can get another follow up shot) At reasonable real world self defense ranges, the pattern should be small enough to assume you have a single shot weapon.
Ive done some training drills where the first round i went for sheer speed of fire, and the targets with only 1 or 2 pellets in them at 15 yards off the centerline of mass was not impressing my instructor.
Training, training and more training!
I agree. Im of the opinion that a buckshot shotgun needs to be aimed just like any other single projectile weapon. If you miss your aim, let the shotgun help you out a little by spreading out and get some pellets at least on target (so you can get another follow up shot) At reasonable real world self defense ranges, the pattern should be small enough to assume you have a single shot weapon.
Ive done some training drills where the first round i went for sheer speed of fire, and the targets with only 1 or 2 pellets in them at 15 yards off the centerline of mass was not impressing my instructor.
Training, training and more training!
.38 Special
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Federal Flite Control wads are designed to hold the pellets together longer, so the effective range (aka:the range the pellets stay within a torso-width) is further.
They really do work as advertised, the shot will lump together until several yards has passed. Then they’ll spread at a slower rate than regular buck (which often uses just a fiber wad and buffer amongst the pellets.) I’ve seen useful patterns out of a 18.5” cyl barrel on torso silhouettes to 35-40 yards with them, while Winchester 00 spreads too much at 30.
It’s very good stuff, you’ll be well defended with the 00 or 1 buck Flite control rounds.
Stay safe.
After quite a bit of testing, I decided cheap, unbuffered buck is right for me. My indoors distances are short and I prefer wide - if lousy - patterns.
cdb1
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I’ve never been in a position where I’ve had to use a shotgun for home defense. But the “racking the slide” mantra has never made sense to me. Like what has already been stated there will already be a round in the chamber. In addition I don’t want the sound to help enable a bad guy to pinpoint my position, and shoot first.
Deanimator
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Where are you getting Flitecontrol these days? As for Walmart, my local one has nothing but bird and small game loads, and mostly in 16 and 28ga.
Pete D.
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The shot gun is made to be “pointed not aimed” is pretty much a function of its use on moving targets (real birds and clay birds). It is also very much related to how the shotgun “fits” the shooter and “fit” depends on a full stock.
Anyone using a PGO or a raptor grip, shooting from the hip or with the stock just under the armpit, had better 1) have practiced a lot or 2) be aiming.
Anyone using a PGO or a raptor grip, shooting from the hip or with the stock just under the armpit, had better 1) have practiced a lot or 2) be aiming.
George P
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Depends on what you're shooting. If you're shooting slugs like a rifle, then you aim. If you're shooting flying/moving targets whether clay, feathered, or others, you point
herrwalther
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Just like with everything else, I pattern my shotguns the same. Put a man sized target at a reasonable SD distance, and shoot my chosen shell. I have found that for shotgun barrels 18" and above (I don't own shorts like the Shockwave) you can reasonably expect buckshot to spread about 1 inch per yard. The farther out you go the wider the shot pattern opens up when using buckshot. Some loads will expand slower (Flitewad etc), some more(bulk and cheap ammo). But 1" is about the average of the loads I have tested.
Oldschool shooter
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Best thing to do is offer to take them to a trap or skeet range. I did that with a new shooter that thought you can't miss with s shotgun. I even paid his range fee. Didn't take long for him to realize there is more to shooting a shotgun than pointing in the general direction.
eastbank
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i wonder if the new TSS shot would be good for indoor defence, it has taken the turkey loads to a new level. at 40 yards my turkey loads put 230 #9 pellets(weight the same as # 5 lead) in a 7.5" circle. with a lower # TSS shot and a more open choke at 30-40 feet may be ok.
mokin
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Nice post bratch. I've patterned my shotguns and do so when I try a new load. I think shotguns are lots of fun but also very misunderstood. More people need to get them out and play with them.
I was definitely pointing wrong at the Trap Club yesterday....
Yes.
Maybe you are pointing wrong.
I was definitely pointing wrong at the Trap Club yesterday....
cdb1
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I’ve thought quite a bit about TSS for SD/HD. I’d like to do some testing but TSS just cost too much for me to do so at this time.
entropy
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No, you do NOT aim at moving targets with a shotgun. If you do, you will miss. Static targets, yes, aiming is a good idea. Aiming requires looking at at least two points (sometimes three) at once. You cannot track a moving target while doing this. Focus must be 100% on the moving target. And you do not necessarily have to lead a flying target if you use the 'swing through' method; it is the sign of a well-trained clays shooter to be able to use sustained lead, or use swing-through as needed. The subconscious chooses which type to use, and brings the gun to bear.
My choice of words and my terminology is wrong, I stand corrected. I am not a serious trap, skeet, or clay shooter. What most call pointing I have always called aiming. I grew up "aiming" my 410 to help put food on the table for my family. Subconsciously I have been "pointing" all this time even though I considered it "aiming" by putting the single bead on the target and then leading it. That has always been my method (right or wrong) for rabbit, squirrel, quail, and dove hunting.
Now when it came to hunting turkey with my 410, yess. I absolutely "aimed" at the turkey's head. And I always aim when using slugs or buckshot. This is especially true when using something like my Mossberg Shockwave..
Now when it came to hunting turkey with my 410, yess. I absolutely "aimed" at the turkey's head. And I always aim when using slugs or buckshot. This is especially true when using something like my Mossberg Shockwave..
I think there are pros and cons with the FliteControl wad keeping all the pellets in one clump. That's in vogue right now but I am not convinced it's necessarily "better". I can imagine instances where even a fist to hand-sized pattern would be better than a wad-sized hole.
Carl N. Brown
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To me, what wing, trap and skeet shooters call "pointing" a shot gun is still aiming a shotgun. Especial when they are using a rib with middle and front beads as points of reference. Formal pointing a shotgun is aligning the barrel on the target. It is not like aiming a rifle in bullsye competition or aiming a shotgun in a turkey shoot, but it is not what most non-shotgunners call just point and shoot.
In barbar shop, auto shop, or beer joint talk of shotgun use, pointing a defensive shotgun to "clear a hallway" usually means just shove it in the general direction and blow everything away; fantasy, like the the scene in "El Dorado" where Mississippi (James Caan) fires his sawed off shot gun from the hip in a saloon and the whole side of the wall erupts in special effects squib charges.
In barbar shop, auto shop, or beer joint talk of shotgun use, pointing a defensive shotgun to "clear a hallway" usually means just shove it in the general direction and blow everything away; fantasy, like the the scene in "El Dorado" where Mississippi (James Caan) fires his sawed off shot gun from the hip in a saloon and the whole side of the wall erupts in special effects squib charges.
George P
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And Pull Away, and Intercept as well. In sporting there is no one magic method; just like real life hunting. "Butt, Belly, Beak, Bang" works on some and not on others.
Stevie-Ray
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That works only if you have a BFG-9000.
rdnktrkr
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I've started loading my SD shotguns with 2 & 4 shot, backup shot on the stock is 00. I patterned my 18 1/2 barrels and it seemed the 4 shot patterns best.
I'm also under the belief that only the second bad guy gets to hear the rack, 1st only hears the click of the safety.
I'm also under the belief that only the second bad guy gets to hear the rack, 1st only hears the click of the safety.
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