10mm vs 357 mag in gel test

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If one of the most reliable gun manufacturers in the world made a 15+1 shot, semi automatic .357 magnum that had 100% reliability and was 98% as accurate as your best wheelgun 6 shot revolver that was chambered in the 10mm?
I love my wheelguns, even considered getting the ultra super high capacity 8 shot Ruger Redhawk or Smith in .357. Not any more.
I have the Glock model 40 MOS 10mm w/6" ported barrel. I handload 180gr JHP or Hard cast from 1300-1350 fps and this weapon has won me over. I carry it in the woods every day while all of my beautiful Colt Pythons, Smith and wesson Model 27
, 586, the Colt trooper, and Ruger Security Six are sadly sitting in my safe....

In Alaska, I carry it over the old .454 casull.
Sorry, the 10mm has won me over as my current favorite handgun caliber. Stay tuned, you will watch this caliber slowly grow in popularity over time while the 357 magnum slowly fades. Its already happening.
 
Palladan44 said:
semi automatic .357 magnum that had 100% reliability a
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Nothing is 100% reliable . nothing.
Palladan44 said:
Stay tuned, you will watch this caliber slowly grow in popularity over time while the 357 magnum slowly fades
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Not going to happen, revolvers use bullet profiles that don't work in bottom feeders.

The 357 has faded some but there are so many out there that they'll still be popular and relevant in 100 years.

Just an opinion but I can't see 10mm ever overtaking the 357.
 
If you attempt to fire say 8,000 rounds and all 8,000 go bang and all of the brass departs the firearm, and the bullet successfully leaves the barrel and leaves a round hole in the target, and the slide returns to battery, that is 100% reliability in most peoples opinion from what ive observed.
Failure is inevitable in all machinery at some point, but thats in the future.
I have several firearms that have been 100% reliable up to this point.

The point is 10mm is increasing in popularity and the 357 is slowly fading. What can the 357 magnum do to overcome that? Not sure.
 
mcb said:
You throw along of terms around that you clearly do not fully understand. ie impulse is simply the change in momentum. A bullet going from 1200 fps to 0 fps in .01 sec or in 10 seconds has experience the exact same impulse. They have certainly experienced a difference force vs time curve to achieve that impulse but there change in momentum/impulse was exactly the same.

All the various thing you talk about can only happen if energy does work. The only form of energy a bullet has is its kinetic energy, the energy of mass in motion (good old KE = 1/2mv^2). A bullet doesn't bring any other form of energy (chemical, electrical, magnetic etc) with it. So if it does anything at the target it does so with kinetic energy. The relationship between that kinetic energy and the work done is often very difficult to calculate/model especially in the case of of tissue given the very difficult to model materials (tissues are highly viscoelastic) and arrangement of those materials in complex structures but kinetic energy is still the only energy available to the bullet to do anything.

In other case the relationship between kinetic energy and a projectile's work is very direct and easy to follow due to a simplified projectile and target. Going clear back to the physics work of the early 1700's physicist show that the work a projectile did was proportional to the kinetic energy. It was one of the experimental proofs they did to show that kinetic energy truly was equal to 1/2mv^2. Willem's Gravesande dropped brass balls into soft clay and found that if he double the velocity the ball (by dropping if from four times the height) the ball would penetrated four times as deep into the clay supporting the theory that kinetic energy was proportional to mv^2 (later they would determine that proportionality was 0.5). In more recent and real world data an AP projectile that does not expand hitting a solid material like steel (one without viscoelastic properties such as tissue) the relationship between kinetic energy and penetration is again linear assuming the projectiles does not appreciable deform or structurally fail and hits the steel squarely enough to not deflect off.

Energy(KJ) Penetration (mm)
4978.9 202
4604.0 185
4169.8 165
3757.1 148
3374.2 132

This is the penetration data for the 8.8cm KwK 43 gun on the WWII era King Tiger (Germans love lots of data and much of it has survived into the public domain today). If you plot that data and run a linear regression on it you will find the relationship between pentation of roll homogenous steel armor and kinetic energy to be very linear and run at approximately 25KJ/mm.

Again I have ramble more than is probably good. My point is that kinetic energy is the only energy a bullet has to do anything you see a bullet do at target impact the more energy you bring the more potential work it can do. Not all that work is always useful. I would also say this has very little to do with lethality other than ensuring you achieve sufficient pentation and assuming your projectile does not fail.
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You're wrong. Impulse is the amount of time it takes for a force to act on a system. A shorter impulse time is a more violent reaction. Time is half of the equation, so your example concerning the bullet going from 1200 fps in .1 sec vs 10 seconds in false, and shows a remarkable lack of rudimentary physics concepts.

https://www.dummies.com/education/science/physics/what-is-impulse-in-physics/

I=Ft

If your bullet going 1200 fps has a mass of 200 grains, and reaches its terminal velocity in .001 second, then it has an average acceleration of 1,200,000 fps^2 and force of about 4738.69N.

I= 4738.69 x .1
I=473.869 Ns

i=4738.69 x 10
I=47386.9 Ns

Again, there are two factors to consider here, the amount of energy, and the time it acts on the system. You keep getting fixated on kinetic energy. Nobody has implied any other factors are at work. You simply ignore basic physics to obsess over foot pounds of energy without considering the other half of the equation. Yes, kinetic energy is the only force the bullet has to do work. But how fast it does that work, its impulse, is at least as important as the amount of energy it has.
 
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MTMilitiaman said:
You're wrong. Impulse is the amount of time it takes for a force to act on a system. A shorter impulse time is a more violent reaction. Time is half of the equation, so your example concerning the bullet going from 1200 fps in .1 sec vs 10 seconds in false, and shows a remarkable lack of rudimentary physics concepts.

https://www.dummies.com/education/science/physics/what-is-impulse-in-physics/

I=Ft

If your bullet going 1200 fps has a mass of 200 grains, and reaches its terminal velocity in .001 second, then it has an average acceleration of 1,200,000 fps^2 and force of about 4738.69N.

I= 4738.69 x .1
I=473.869 Ns

i=4738.69 x 10
I=47386.9 Ns

Again, there are two factors to consider here, the amount of energy, and the time it acts on the system. You keep getting fixated on kinetic energy. Nobody has implied any other factors are at work. You simply ignore basic physics to obsess over foot pounds of energy without considering the other half of the equation. Yes, kinetic energy is the only force the bullet has to do work. But how fast it does that work, its impulse, is at least as important as the amount of energy it has.
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Bold emphasis mine, that is my point, plain and simple. Kinetic energy is the only energy source a bullet has to do anything at the target. Your definition of impulse is incorrect. You are confusing impulse with acceleration. Impulse is the integral of the change in momentum over time. The units of impulse is force x time but there is no time frame inherent in that number. Bringing the bullet to a stop in 10 seconds or .01 second produces the same change in momentum thus the same impulse. The accelerations and forces are very different but the impulse is the same.
 
mcb said:
Bold emphasis mine, that is my point, plain and simple. Kinetic energy is the only energy source a bullet has to do anything at the target. Your definition of impulse is incorrect. You are confusing impulse with acceleration. Impulse is the integral of the change in momentum over time. The units of impulse is force x time but there is no time frame inherent in that number. Bringing the bullet to a stop in 10 seconds or .01 second produces the same change in momentum thus the same impulse. The accelerations and forces are very different but the impulse is the same.
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No, you are wrong. That is why impulse is expressed as force over time, because time is half of impulse. You can't discuss impulse and ignore the time nor is the impulse the same if the time is different. I showed you this plainly with the formula for impulse. This is crayons-are-not-for-eating-simple. There is only two factors to consider in determining impulse and you still somehow get it wrong. Use your fingers if you have to, or phone a friend, or whatever you have to do. Just stop going full retard on the internet.

"The product of impulsive force and time for which it acts is called impulse."
https://www.learncram.com/physics/impulse/
 
MTMilitiaman said:
Bullet expansion is a product of velocity, not energy.
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Oh lord.

Read and heed:

mcb said:
All the various thing you talk about can only happen if energy does work. The only form of energy a bullet has is its kinetic energy, the energy of mass in motion (good old KE = 1/2mv^2). A bullet doesn't bring any other form of energy (chemical, electrical, magnetic etc) with it. So if it does anything at the target it does so with kinetic energy. The relationship between that kinetic energy and the work done is often very difficult to calculate/model especially in the case of of tissue given the very difficult to model materials (tissues are highly viscoelastic) and arrangement of those materials in complex structures but kinetic energy is still the only energy available to the bullet to do anything.
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Work, or energy, is what deforms the bullet, breaks bone, penetrates armor, etc.
 
I would have to agree with @MTMilitiaman in regards to the discussion on "impulse", just think "crumple zones" in cars. Extending the time of a loss of momentum is diminishing it's effect.
 
Kleanbore said:
Work, or energy, is what deforms the bullet, breaks bone, penetrates armor, etc.
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Energy is not what deforms bullets. Velocity deforms bullets. This is why loading manuals list expansion velocity thresholds, not energy thresholds. The bullet loses energy as it expands, but this is because it is losing velocity as a function of increased drag.
 
mcb said:
Bold emphasis mine, that is my point, plain and simple. Kinetic energy is the only energy source a bullet has to do anything at the target. Your definition of impulse is incorrect. You are confusing impulse with acceleration. Impulse is the integral of the change in momentum over time. The units of impulse is force x time but there is no time frame inherent in that number. Bringing the bullet to a stop in 10 seconds or .01 second produces the same change in momentum thus the same impulse. The accelerations and forces are very different but the impulse is the same.
Click to expand...

Force is mass times acceleration. Force is also one of only two variables in impulse. You literally can not separate acceleration from impulse. Time is part of impulse. You are absolutely 100% wrong on this, as I have demonstrated numerous times from numerous sources.
 
Kleanbore said:
I hat to sound rude, but you really need to take a course in physics and one in materials science.
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A 155 gr .40 caliber Gold Dot @ 1200 fps and a 200 gr .40 caliber Gold Dot @ 1050 fps have nearly identical energy, but one is for sure going to expand to a greater diameter.

I hate to sound rude on this, but I am the only one who has actually provided or done any real science. I have also provided links to an interview with guys who test and design bullets. You're the only one making unsubstantiated claims. Straight from the horse's mouth, the people who actually design bullets say they don't even consider energy, it is a non-issue to them. Straight from Issac Newton's mouth, the unit of force measurement that bears his name includes acceleration, but not energy, because energy is a byproduct. It only exists as a function of mass and velocity. It not some magical force that causes bullets to deform. Velocity causes bullets to deform, which is why when bullet manufactures design and test bullets, they consider velocity, and not energy.
 
MTMilitiaman said:
Force is mass times acceleration. Force is also one of only two variables in impulse. You literally can not separate acceleration from impulse. Time is part of impulse. You are absolutely 100% wrong on this, as I have demonstrated numerous times from numerous sources.
Click to expand...

From your earlier source (https://www.learncram.com/physics/impulse/): Total impulse for the force applied during period t1, to t2 = Area under the F-t curve from t1 to t1. (I would point out that source is intended for K-12 students that have not had calculus)

So if our 200gr bullet (mass = .000888 slug) decelerates from 1200 fps to 0 fps over ten seconds. That is a deceleration of 120 ft/s^2. Since F=ma that means our bullet experiences a force of .10656 lb of force over those 10 seconds. The impulse is the area under the force vs time curve. Since in this simplified example the force is constant over the time period the integral is simply the force of .10656 lbs times 10 seconds or an impulse of 1.0656 lb-s

So if our 200gr bullet (mass = .000888 slug) decelerates from 1200 fps to 0 fps over .001 seconds. That is a deceleration of 1,200,000 ft/s^2. Since F=ma that means our bullet experiences a force of 1065.6 lb of force over those .001 seconds. The impulse is the area under the force vs time curve. Since in this simplified example the force is constant over the time period the integral is simply the force of 1065.6 lbs times .001 seconds or an impulse of 1.0656 lb-s

Like I said earlier you are confusing impulse and acceleration.

I do agree with you that those higher forces and acceleration likely mean more interesting things are going to be happening but a target that can stop that bullet in 10 seconds is a very different target than one that can stop that bullet in .001 second.
 
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