What size push knife?

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Solomonson

Solomonson

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Hello. I'm preparing to purchase a push knife to carry when I fitness walk/hike/jog. Weight or the ability to conceal isn't a top consideration, as I must carry it exposed, attached to my waistline where I live (California.)

I've narrowed it down to either a Cold Steel Safe Maker 2 (OAL 5.0", 3.25" blade, 2.3 oz.) or a Cold Steel Safe Maker 1 (OAL 6.5", 4.5" blade, 3.7 oz.)

When does a larger push knife become less maneuverable to the point where it's actually less effective as a defensive tool? Again, the ability to conceal the knife doesn't mean a whole lot in my application, and I am a big/strong male.

I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.

https://pics.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/coldsteel/images/CS12DBST_CS12DCST_LS1R.jpg
 
If weight isn't a consideration and concealing it is out, Safemaker 1. I carried a Safekeeper with a 5" blade for a couple years. If you want to see how big they get look up a Katar. 10" x 3" blade.
 
I go with the SafeMaker II only because if I had to use it as a last-ditch defensive weapon, I don't see any advantage to the inch-and-a-quarter longer blade ... would already be too up-close and personal. On second thought, if I was trying to get a grizzly off of me, the slightly longer blade might help (right), but otherwise ...

The SafeMaker blades don't come real sharp from the factory and take some work -- for a blade this size, you want it razor sharp.

365s.jpg
 
Same with CA, double edge knives are a no go.

Kind of stupid when they allow you to open carry any length of knife.
 
Is there some especial reason you want a push knife? Push knives are really weapons for people who don't know how to use knives as weapons.

Even something like a Civilian would give you more reach, even with the same length blade.

John
 
Mk-211 said:
Same with CA, double edge knives are a no go.

Kind of stupid when they allow you to open carry any length of knife.
Click to expand...

I live in California, where many seem to be confused about our long-standing knife laws.

It is illegal to carry concealed fixed blade knives, termed "dirks and daggers" in CA. It is legal to openly carry them with a sheath attached to one's waistline (Penal Code 21310.)

Here in CA, the illegality of a knife based upon it being double-edged is a red herring. No such law exists. https://askinglot.com/are-double-edged-knives-illegal-in-california
 
JShirley said:
Is there some especial reason you want a push knife? Push knives are really weapons for people who don't know how to use knives as weapons.

Even something like a Civilian would give you more reach, even with the same length blade.

John
Click to expand...
Ease of use under pressure.
Ease of deployment.
Ease of carry.
Ease of clean-up (mostly daily sweat.)
The single-use appearance of a push knife.
 
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Solomonson said:
I've narrowed it down to either a Cold Steel Safe Maker 2 (OAL 5.0", 3.25" blade, 2.3 oz.) or a Cold Steel Safe Maker 1 (OAL 6.5", 4.5" blade, 3.7 oz.)
Click to expand...
I own examples of both, and if I was carrying one for SD, I'd probably chose the Safe Maker 1. The extra weight and length isn't a really issue to carry, and it provides deeper penetration, which is often the main wounding factor with daggers and push knives.

JShirley said:
Is there some especial reason you want a push knife? Push knives are really weapons for people who don't know how to use knives as weapons.
Click to expand...
Does the OP intend to devote the considerable time neede to become proficient in knife fighting? Real proficiency isn't something you can't pick up from watching a couple of YouTube videos. Push knives also tend to be very secure and almost impossible to disarm. Also, if you have any experience with wrestling or grappling MAs, you can perform a lot of those techniques while retaining your knife.

JShirley said:
Even something like a Civilian would give you more reach, even with the same length blade.
Click to expand...
I don't see how the Civilian would give you significantly more reach. The difference in grip might add an inch or less, but that does not seem significant to me.

BTW, I seem to remember that the Civilian was designed particularly as a weapon for people who don't know how to fight with a knife. Push daggers are good for untrained knife fighters because they can work with a simple punching action, which many people find very natural. The Civilian, on the other hand, was designed for untrained slashing, which is another fairly natural attack.
 
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mdauben said:
Does the OP intend to devote the considerable time neede to become proficient in knife fighting? Real proficiency isn't something you can't pick up from watching a couple of YouTube videos. Push knives also tend to be very secure and almost impossible to disarm...

I don't see how the Civilian would give you significantly more reach. The difference in grip might add an inch or less, but that does not seem significant to me.

BTW, I seem to remember that the Civilian was designed particularly as a weapon for people who don't know how to fight with a knife. Push daggers are good for untrained knife fighters because they can work with a simple punching action, which many people find very natural. The Civilian, on the other hand, was designed for untrained slashing, which is another fairly natural attack.
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Yes, I mentioned the Civilian specifically, since it was also designed for defense by people without a lot of knife training. When you're talking about knives of such a limited size, the 2 or more inches of reach you get with a natural or saber grip on a more traditional knife vs. a push dagger might be significant.

<Shrug>. At the end of the day, the user bears the consequences of his decisions.

John
 
mdauben said:
Does the OP intend to devote the considerable time neede to become proficient in knife fighting? Real proficiency isn't something you can't pick up from watching a couple of YouTube videos.
Click to expand...
I certainly can't speak to the OPs intent for carrying a push knife; I only know that I occasionally carry one as a back-up blade (and have on duty) primarily as a last-ditch "get off of me" resort, and handgun-retention tool. The push knife can be accessed much faster (for me) from its sheath clipped on my vest or my belt than a folder in my pocket. I am under no illusions about my knife-fighting prowess, and can't feature any scenario where I'd even want to train in knife-fighting (well, if all firearms were banned, for sure). I've seen enough results of knife work during my few years on the street.

For me, I've trained for years, regularly, in firearms-retention skills and had quite a bit of free (government provided) training in edged weapon defense (and a moderate bit on my own dime). But mostly, my use of a push-knife is when the Amazon (and more happily, the square brown) trucks drop boxes off on my front porch. So I have no future plans to become a knife-fighter (although I do have two solid years of fencing under my belt from a few decades ago).
 
Solomonson,
Thanks for clearing that up (kind of), there are still some references to them being illegal. Typical CA, make the laws so convoluted that people won't buy because they don't want to be punished with a felony.

This is referencing carrying them, you can own them but when it comes to carrying... that's when things get strange. I've found both, there's yes but can't be concealed or just a flat out NO!

Knowing how bad CA DA's can be when it comes to ANY weapon, people would rather not carry them.
 
Mk-211 said:
Solomonson,
Thanks for clearing that up (kind of), there are still some references to them being illegal. Typical CA, make the laws so convoluted that people won't buy because they don't want to be punished with a felony.

This is referencing carrying them, you can own them but when it comes to carrying... that's when things get strange. I've found both, there's yes but can't be concealed or just a flat out NO!

Knowing how bad CA DA's can be when it comes to ANY weapon, people would rather not carry them.
Click to expand...

The CA knife laws aren't really convoluted. Many can't seem to understand the concealed carry of ANY fixed blade knife (which the state labels as "daggers/dirks") is illegal, but the open carry of them is not. What becomes confusing is people trying to foist attributes onto fixed blade knives which they believe makes them illegal (e.g. double-edged), and things become confusing very quickly.

Some suggest these special attributes are what makes them a "dirk/dagger", when in reality, it's just a label used by the state to define fixed blade knives.

I don't know of ANY knife that is illegal to own (own, not carry) here in CA.
 
After a brief survey of this information: https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/california/ I am left with the impression that it is illegal to own (manufacture or transfer) certain types of knife such as ballistic, undetectable knives and cane swords. Additionally, cities can and do impose more extensive rules and regs than state law. The dirk/dagger may be permitted for open carry on one's belt, but once removed from the sheath (ie when needed) the requirements are no longer met. All I am saying is that things are seldom as simple as they seem.
 
That's what I'm getting at, not looking to argue about it. I just don't want to be the crash test dummy in CA!

DA's in CA are always looking to put another notch on their belts. They don't care about the damage that they leave behind. All that matters is their record of wins in court!
 
Solomonson said:
It is illegal to carry concealed fixed blade knives, termed "dirks and daggers" in CA.
Click to expand...

He's correct, CA state law prohibits CONCEALED carry.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=21310&lawCode=PEN
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=16590.


16590.

As used in this part, “generally prohibited weapon” means any of the following:

(i) A concealed dirk or dagger, as prohibited by Section 21310.

21310.

Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who carries concealed upon the person any dirk or dagger is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
​
I have to recommend checking that local law isn't more restrictive and that it needs to openly carried (considering clothing can cover a T handled knife easier than a straight handled knife it is a consideration how you carry it).

Be aware of this if you come upon a gathering that can be considered a "meeting open to the public". https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/...sectionNum=171b.&highlight=true&keyword=blade

​
Making more of this (out of the sheath) isn't supported by the law. Frankly, if you draw a knife you have more than the carry laws to deal with considering it would be drawn only in self defense.
 
hso said:
He's correct, CA state law prohibits CONCEALED carry.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=21310&lawCode=PEN
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=16590.


16590.

As used in this part, “generally prohibited weapon” means any of the following:

(i) A concealed dirk or dagger, as prohibited by Section 21310.

21310.

Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who carries concealed upon the person any dirk or dagger is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
​
I have to recommend checking that local law isn't more restrictive and that it needs to openly carried (considering clothing can cover a T handled knife easier than a straight handled knife it is a consideration how you carry it).

Be aware of this if you come upon a gathering that can be considered a "meeting open to the public". https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/...sectionNum=171b.&highlight=true&keyword=blade

​
Making more of this (out of the sheath) isn't supported by the law. Frankly, if you draw a knife you have more than the carry laws to deal with considering it would be drawn only in self defense.
Click to expand...
I'm curious about your take on:

"20200.

A knife carried in a sheath that is worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer is not concealed within the meaning of Section 16140, 16340, 17350, or 21310."

I wonder if "worn openly" would include a fixed knife in a sheath which was 1/2 (or more) visible lengthwise when worn with an untucked shirt as is so common today?
 
I assume an untucked shirt will cover knife at some point that would conceal it.

Worse, a coat or vest might conceal a belt sheathed knife.

I'd be cautious about making sure the sheath and knife were visible regardless of dress.
 
JShirley said:
Is there some especial reason you want a push knife? Push knives are really weapons for people who don't know how to use knives as weapons.

Even something like a Civilian would give you more reach, even with the same length blade.

John
Click to expand...
Forgive me I just got to comment on this. What citizen,1 in what number knows how to knife fight. Really I just get antsy about this stuff. Don’t carry the assailant will take it away from you, your a walking holster with out hand to hand training, damn is every thug out there a super trained combatant, I think most are cowards and the showing of a weapon would be sufficient.
Awareness and avoiding bad neighborhoods would be ones first line of self defense.

Just venting.
 
Vent all you want, but showing (displaying/brandishing) a knife is foolish, and a good way to die.

Most people say "knife fighting", and mean some Hollywood knife vs knife duel. The appropriate place for defensive knife use is a close-range attack by an assailant who doesn't know you have a weapon of any sort. Defense against choking or a grab would be ideal uses, when aggressor has placed himself in reach, and the defender knows exactly where he is.

If you have the opportunity, any type of longer-ranged weapon, including stick, OC spray, Taser (NOT "stun gun") or firearm is preferable.

Being reliably dangerous with a knife is a matter of understanding how and what to cut, and how to move. Personally, I've put a knife into CNS of a wounded but still living deer, and she died just as quickly as the buck I punched in the same place with a 155 grain .40 XTP. Instantly.
 
Solomonson said:
When does a larger push knife become less maneuverable to the point where it's actually less effective as a defensive tool?
I would appreciate any advice.
Click to expand...


While trying to help with the best push knife options, I've been resisting the need to make the point that a push knife isn't as good as other knives for SD (and frankly while I'm trained and carry a knife every day), training or not. You sacrifice reach, penetration depth, and slashing ability. If worn OWB where you may not conceal, it is also more difficult to avoid concealing the very short knife if you aren't wearing just a tucked shirt and carrying on a belt. You don't need much training to use a fixed blade knife with simple techniques, but you should at least train to those. For such simple techniques look at Marc McYoung's work on this.
 
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