SAAMI Pressure vs Manufacturer's Book Loading Data

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NMexJim

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SAAMI gives us a max pressure (in psi or cup) for a given cartridge. There are some +P rating, but for this question/discussion, let's leave them over to the side for a bit.

Ammunition manufacturers use this maximum standard as a guideline for their ammo. White box will be generally under the spec and defensive loads may approach the standard more closely but will not exceed that pressure standard. Am I right so far?

Now, let's take a pistol that plainly states that one should not exceed SAAMI standards for that caliber and that the firearm is not rated for +P or higher pressures. So, I assume that means we will not be able to commonly buy ammo that will cause the standards to be exceeded - given liabilities and so forth. Normally, we only have the velocity to judge manufactured ammo. Am I still doing ok?

My real question is this:
When we reload, the bullet or powder manufacturers will give us guidelines in their published books usually in terms of minimum or maximum powder charge. I have assumed the same standards to hold true - that the values given will not exceed, either in min or max recommendations, those same SAAMI standards provided we follow all of the load information given - COAL, primer, bullet diameter, etc, etc.

Could I be overpressuring a caliber by using the max loading data recommended given that all other factors are per the specs?

Yep, I know OEM's don't like handloads.
 
The guides published are what they got with their test environment. Since your not using any of their stuff your results may/will be different. Chambers are all over the place, brass is never the same volume between different mfg, different powder lots, etc. You get the idea. These are just recommendation on where to start. Different OAL will yield a different pressure. This is why we ALWAYS recommend start low and work up.

Example: I have 1 223R min chamber that I have to shorten the OAL by 0.030" to clear the lands. So this gun requires a lot lower load to get the same velocity as my other guns.
 
The sami max pressure is for continuous use and the standard to which firearms are designed to.
The load/reloading book is a test set with the specified components and weapon or test barrel. It serves as an anicdodal example of what to expect given that load with those exact combinations of components.

Real life: you take those test standards and select a starting load from the book using the powder that you have on hand. You assemble and test the starting load in your weapon. You evaluate the performance vs needs and expectations, and either keep that load or evaluate for increase of charge. Repeat cycle as deemed appropriate. If you change any of the components you should start all over again. Your comfort and experience will lead eventually to shortcuts in the process as you feel safe and appropriate.
 
I should have used "serious" or "significant" overpressure in my original thread. Sorry for that omission. Would a maximum load listed in a reloading manual cause significant overpressure? I've always been of the opinion that a max load would be at or under SAAMI pressures.

If memory serves, firearms are generally proof tested (that's maybe one in a particular lot or each one individually) to 25% over standard, so theoretically there should not be an issue.

There is a long story that's behind this and doesn't bear repeating, but that's had me scratching my head for years. No matter, I'll make a phone call or two and report back.

Thanks
 
The guides published are what they got with their test environment. Since your not using any of their stuff your results may/will be different. Chambers are all over the place, brass is never the same volume between different mfg, different powder lots, etc. You get the idea. These are just recommendation on where to start. Different OAL will yield a different pressure. This is why we ALWAYS recommend start low and work up.

I've had Max loads, within reload data, given cause overpressure in some of my rifles. Flattened primers, ejector marks... If that happens reduce charges to levels that don't show these signs.
 
Bit off topic, but SAAMI doesn't have +p ratings for many things (memory says 38 and 9mm IIRC). Pet peeve of mine when I see people list things as +p+ or even +p if there is no +p standard for that cartridge. I know what they are attempting to do but is that +p 1% over a non-existent standard or 50% over?

Not sure I have ever seen a firearm rated for +p+ and as SAAMI doesn't have a spec for that I can see why.

To the OPs direct question. Yes, you can get things above spec with the factory data. That is why they say to start 10% below max. All sorts of variables can come into play and if stacked will create you issues possibly.
 
Could I be overpressuring a caliber by using the max loading data recommended given that all other factors are per the specs?
You can overpressure using below the MIN data even. I acquired a Ruger PRS in .243, and thought IMR4955 would be a new powder to add to the lineup. I loaded an OCW set which the first load was under the specified min (41.0 vs 41.9gr). The first min round blew the primer so I deconstructed one of the min loads and verified powder and weight, reloaded and blew the primer again. The other powders, 4350 and 4831SC were well behaved throughout the OCW test with the same brass, bullet and COL. Good luck.
 
Yes you can. Chamber dimensions vary. Powder lots vary. ETC.
The odds are against it. But it can happen.

Add to the list that brass capacity can vary and there can be a wide variety of bullets that can fit one generic description.

For the most part any significant over pressure problems are limited to high pressure rifle loads. Once you start getting Max loads around the 65,000 PSI range, with cases at or near compressed loads, little variations can cause large changes in pressure. For something like .38 Special or 45 ACP slight variations in seating depth, bullet construction, different brass headstamps are of little consequence.
 
Ok, so as much as I use SAAMI, I've never read the introductory material. I've taken the liberty of copying (and deleting some unnecessary pictures, diagrams). This will be a somewhat long post, but the information should prove interesting as a read.



The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI) is an association of the nation’s leading manufacturers of firearms, ammunition and components. SAAMI was founded in 1926 at the request of the federal government and tasked with:
  • Creating and publishing industry standards for safety, interchangeability, reliability and quality
  • Coordinating technical data
  • Promoting safe and responsible firearms use
SAAMI Strategic Goals

1). Create and maintain technically-correct standards for terminology, performance, interchangeability, and safety regarding firearms and ammunition.

2). Continually improve and share our expertise with policymakers and strategic partners related to technical performance and safety regarding firearms and ammunition manufacturers’ issues.

3). Continually improve the forum by which members consider and analyze appropriate standards and policies regarding firearms and ammunition.

4). Monitor, anticipate, and address new technology, opportunities, challenges, and emerging trends impacting the mission of SAAMI.

5). Increase SAAMI’s public visibility as “the experts” in our fields.


Our Mission


To create and promulgate technical, performance and safety standards for firearms, ammunition, and components; and to be the preeminent global resource for the safe and responsible transportation, storage, and use of these products.

SAAMI Technical Committee

The primary work of SAAMI is done by its Technical Committee in the establishment of industry standards. Product standards for firearms and ammunition are developed by two Product Standards Task Forces, one for ammunition and one for firearms. Recommendations of the task forces are submitted for review by the entire Technical Committee.

Partnership with CIP

The Technical Committee works with the Commission Internationale Permanente (CIP), an international association of member countries. By working together, the CIP and SAAMI are working towards the development of internationally recognized standards. The SAAMI Technical committee frequently provides technical information to legislative and regulatory bodies across the US and around the world.


Accredited Standards Developer

As an accredited standards developer for the American National Standards Institute (ANSI), SAAMI’s standards for industry test methods, definitive proof loads, and ammunition performance specifications are subject to comprehensive ANSI criteria and rigorous ANSI review.

According to the American National Standards Institute, “Approval of an American National Standard requires verification by ANSI that the requirements for due process, consensus, and other criteria for approval have been met by the standards developer.

Consensus is established when, in the judgment of the ANSI Board of Standards Review, substantial agreement has been reached by directly and materially affected interests. Substantial agreement means much more than a simple majority, but not necessarily unanimity. Consensus requires that all views and objections be considered, and that a concerted effort be made toward their resolution.”

ANSI Standards are developed when the governing body, SAAMI, proposes a new standard and circulates the draft to canvasses. Canvasses for each standard include government agencies (such as the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the U.S. Customs Service), non-SAAMI member companies, and interested parties (such as the National Institute of Standards and Technology). Once the draft standard has been reviewed and returned to SAAMI with comments or corrections, the canvass group votes on whether or not to accept the standard. If there is disagreement and a canvassee opposes the standard but the standard is accepted by the other members of the canvass group, there is an ANSI appeals process that decides the matter.

It is both ANSI and SAAMI policy that standards be regularly reviewed and reaffirmed. Even if the standards remain unchanged, they must be regularly subjected to the approval process outlined above. Simply stated, the standards accepted by ANSI and promulgated by SAAMI are reviewed and accepted by outside experts, and the validity of the standards are re-affirmed.

Over the years, there have been attempts to put firearms and ammunition under the Consumer Safety Protection Act (CSPA). Recognizing that commerce in, and use of, firearms are highly regulated, Congress clarified that the firearms and ammunition industries are outside of the scope of CSPA in 1972 saying, “The Consumer Product Safety Commission shall make no ruling or order that restricts the manufacture or sale of firearms, ammunition, including black powder or gun powder, for firearms.” It is important to note that numerous other industries fall outside of the scope of the CSPA, including automobiles, boats, and aircraft.

Since 1926 SAAMI has been the only organization in the United States actively engaged in the development and promulgation of product standards for sporting firearms and ammunition. The U.S. military, the Department of Homeland Security, and many state and local agencies frequently require the products they purchase adhere to SAAMI specifications.

SAAMI Logistics and Regulatory Affairs Committee (SLARAC)

The SAAMI Logistics and Regulatory Affairs Committee (commonly called “SLARAC”) works to shape the constantly evolving transportation and storage regulations, both international and domestic, so that SAAMI products can be distributed economically, securely, and safely throughout the world. Education is a key function and SLARAC is dedicated to providing science-based information to regulators. The committee also keeps SAAMI member companies up-to-date on applicable changes in regulations.

SLARAC works closely with domestic and international regulatory bodies. Domestically, this involves the Federal Departments of Commerce, State, Transportation, Labor, Homeland Security, and Justice. In addition, SLARAC participates in the development of industry standards through their membership in the following organizations:
  • International Code Council
  • International Fire Code
  • National Fire Protection Association
  • International Society of Explosive Engineers
SLARAC relationships extend to foreign Governments as well as participation on The United Nations Committee of Experts on the Transportation of Dangerous Goods (TDG) and The United Nations Committee of Experts on the Globally Harmonized System of Classification and Labeling of Chemicals (GHS).

SLARAC has produced two educational videos which dispel the myths as to the hazards that take place when small arms ammunition and/or smokeless powder are subjected to adverse conditions such as severe impact or to fire. The video, “Sporting Ammunition and the Firefighter” demonstrates sporting ammunition involved in a fire or subjected to severe impact. The companion video, “Smokeless Powder and the Fire Service” shows the effect of smokeless powder subjected to the same conditions.

The tests, patterned after the United Nations Manual of Tests and Criteria, indicate that any projections would not significantly hinder firefighting or other emergency response efforts in the immediate vicinity of the package.

The videos, which have been widely circulated to fire departments, Governmental agencies, port authorities and airport safety departments, are highly recommended as additions to any library of safety publications.

Also, a product of the SLARAC Committee are the following informative brochures (See Informational Publications & Advisories):


Transition from ORM-D to LQ

SAAMI conducted a seminar in Las Vegas, Nev. on Jan. 14, 2013 featuring the change from ORM-D to LQ Ammunition and other SAAMI products and shipping methods. Updates from officials representing Pipeline & Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) and Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) were presented.

Overview – SAAMI Logistics Seminar Booklet

Presentations:
SAAMI Legal & Legislative Affairs Committee

The SAAMI Legal and Legislative Affairs Committee is responsible for tracking developments at the state and federal level in the field of product liability law and legislation that impact the design, manufacture and sale of firearms, ammunition and propellants by SAAMI member companies.

The Legal and Legislative Affairs Committee actively represents our members’ interests in Washington, D.C., before Congress, the Executive Branch, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the Federal Bureau of Investigation – National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) and other federal regulatory agencies.

The Legal and Legislative Affairs Committee also focuses closely on state legislative proposals. For example, the Committee played a leading role recently in defeating several California bills – bullet serialization and firearms micro-stamping — that, while well-intentioned, were neither realistic nor workable. Had these bills passed, they would have had disastrous consequence for law enforcement, citizens and SAAMI member companies alike.

The Committee is proactive, too, working to advance legislation consistent with SAAMI’s mission. For example, the Committee worked together with a strong coalition of business groups, shooting sports organizations and the conservation community to win passage in Congress of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms, a law that blocks “junk” lawsuits that would blame firearm manufacturers for the actions of criminals.



So, SAAMI plays several very important roles relating to our interests. Some of these roles that are most important for me are:
  • the Mission Statement: "To create and promulgate technical, performance and safety standards for firearms, ammunition, and components; and to be the preeminent global resource for the safe and responsible transportation, storage, and use of these products."
  • Being an accredited standards developer for ANSI American National Standards Institute).
  • SAAMI Legal and Legislative Affairs Committee and their work with "junk" lawsuits.
My next endeavor is to contact several providers of reloading data and see how they related their ammunition or products to SAAMI specs.
 
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