The Perfect Circle.

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Ugly Sauce

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Took a shot at the paper plate just to make sure she's "on", as deer and elk open up here (late ML season) on the 24th I believe. If it seems like a lot of rain, I'll leave my Jeager home and head out with the '61. I may just take her one day, just to give her some love.

This is one of the most "perfect" bullet holes I've seen in a while. I'd say the R.E.A.L is very well stabilized. The little metplat cut a perfect hole. The rest of the bullet tore through, but left a perfect impression. I flattened it back out, and put some tape over the back of the hole. You can see the little tears, where it "tore or punched through".

I thought it was interesting. You may not! :)
 
I've been playing around with Minie's, but have not had good results with heavier powder charges. Yes, I know all the ins and outs and techniques of getting a minie to shoot. I also realize the 60 grain milspec load will kill a deer or elk, but I'd like a tad flatter trajectory, and I also hunt in a grizzly recovery area, so I feel better with a little more zip and boom in case I get in an argument with grizz.

Sometimes I get pretty good results with minies, but never consistent results. I've played around lately with plugging the bases of minies, which shows "promising" results, but not consistent. Yes, I realize it's not too hard to get the minie to shoot with 60 grains or less powder.

I'd like to shoot a minie, as it's much heavier than the R.E.A.L., but until I can get one to shoot consistently accurately, with at least 80 grains.....

So, I always wind up going back to the R.E.A.L. It's funny what differences powder charge, lube, and wads, and combinations thereof can make. I had been shooting the R.E.A.L. over 100 grains of BP, no lube, and a pure bee's wax wad under the bullet. This showed "pretty good" results. I fired one shot yesterday, checking to see if she was "on" with round ball, over 80 grains, which she had been shooting pretty good, and which she was already loaded with. Ball went so high and right that I would have missed any deer, and wounded an elk.

So, dug out a "plugged", waxed dipped mine, traditional 510 grain, over 100 grains, and she shot on elevation wise, but off to the right. Just off the right side of the plate. So I think, "okay, one more shot and if it goes in the same place I'll just hold left a bit. Boom! Second shot did not even hit the plywood. (about 4X3') Must have tumbled very badly.

So, I dug out one of my last two R.E.A.L's, got the bee's wax off it, lubed it with some lube I made that really improved the accuracy of slugs in my Remington Navy, reduced the charge to 80 grains, and forgot to use the wad. SHAZAM! Almost dead center on the plate, and the "perfect circle".

So, will cast up some more R.E.A.L.'s today, in a few minutes in fact, and see if I can repeat that shot, or at least keep it on the plate. I have a warm and fuzzy feeling though, that I've found perfection, for this rifle, at last. R.E.A.L., 80 grains fffg, no wad, and the magic brown lube. :)
 
A perfect circle. Good band. Maynard James Keenan was a little better with Tool, IMO. But still pretty good.
Tools new album "Fear Inoculum" has a couple duds, but also some incredible tracks, especially "Invincible" and "Descending."

That IS one of the most perfect bullet-holes Ive ever seen!

Wouldnt mind a few more pics of that '61 though, very nice!
 
Don't forget Perfect Circle piston rings. It's hard to get that whole '61 in a picture, as she's so long. But I'll see what I can do. It is certainly one of the nicest looking 1861 Springfield rifles that I have seen. fit and finish is superb, really nice wood, etc. Armi-Sport.

It's so long, I can start hunting the day before season opens, because the muzzle is already there.
 
Don't forget Perfect Circle piston rings. It's hard to get that whole '61 in a picture, as she's so long. But I'll see what I can do. It is certainly one of the nicest looking 1861 Springfield rifles that I have seen. fit and finish is superb, really nice wood, etc. Armi-Sport.

It's so long, I can start hunting the day before season opens, because the muzzle is already there.
:D:rofl:
 
Okay her she is. This is really a beautiful rifle. I used to hear that Armi-Sport was the bottom of the barrel, but the quality of this rifle is top-notch. Only thing I can figure is that perhaps it was meant that they were the least authentic. ?

Anyhow, it the rain continues on opening of late ML season, I'll take her out for Elk and Deer for sure, and at least one day for sure. I was out on the State Land today with my Brown Bess, (in the rain) looking for turks, and boy did I jump up a couple of nice Elk. I named the one "Fat Albert" for obvious reasons. :) Didn't really see what kind of rack was on it, but it was packing some serious meat on those hind quarters. !!! So, me and the '61 will be looking for Fat Albert on the 25th, until Dec.8th. DSC07207.JPG
 
Okay her she is. This is really a beautiful rifle. I used to hear that Armi-Sport was the bottom of the barrel, but the quality of this rifle is top-notch. Only thing I can figure is that perhaps it was meant that they were the least authentic. ?

Anyhow, it the rain continues on opening of late ML season, I'll take her out for Elk and Deer for sure, and at least one day for sure. I was out on the State Land today with my Brown Bess, (in the rain) looking for turks, and boy did I jump up a couple of nice Elk. I named the one "Fat Albert" for obvious reasons. :) Didn't really see what kind of rack was on it, but it was packing some serious meat on those hind quarters. !!! So, me and the '61 will be looking for Fat Albert on the 25th, until Dec.8th.View attachment 956455
Gorgeous!
 
I've been playing around with Minie's, but have not had good results with heavier powder charges. Yes, I know all the ins and outs and techniques of getting a minie to shoot. I also realize the 60 grain milspec load will kill a deer or elk, but I'd like a tad flatter trajectory, and I also hunt in a grizzly recovery area, so I feel better with a little more zip and boom in case I get in an argument with grizz.

Sometimes I get pretty good results with minies, but never consistent results. I've played around lately with plugging the bases of minies, which shows "promising" results, but not consistent. Yes, I realize it's not too hard to get the minie to shoot with 60 grains or less powder.

I'd like to shoot a minie, as it's much heavier than the R.E.A.L., but until I can get one to shoot consistently accurately, with at least 80 grains.....

So, I always wind up going back to the R.E.A.L. It's funny what differences powder charge, lube, and wads, and combinations thereof can make. I had been shooting the R.E.A.L. over 100 grains of BP, no lube, and a pure bee's wax wad under the bullet. This showed "pretty good" results. I fired one shot yesterday, checking to see if she was "on" with round ball, over 80 grains, which she had been shooting pretty good, and which she was already loaded with. Ball went so high and right that I would have missed any deer, and wounded an elk.

So, dug out a "plugged", waxed dipped mine, traditional 510 grain, over 100 grains, and she shot on elevation wise, but off to the right. Just off the right side of the plate. So I think, "okay, one more shot and if it goes in the same place I'll just hold left a bit. Boom! Second shot did not even hit the plywood. (about 4X3') Must have tumbled very badly.

So, I dug out one of my last two R.E.A.L's, got the bee's wax off it, lubed it with some lube I made that really improved the accuracy of slugs in my Remington Navy, reduced the charge to 80 grains, and forgot to use the wad. SHAZAM! Almost dead center on the plate, and the "perfect circle".

So, will cast up some more R.E.A.L.'s today, in a few minutes in fact, and see if I can repeat that shot, or at least keep it on the plate. I have a warm and fuzzy feeling though, that I've found perfection, for this rifle, at last. R.E.A.L., 80 grains fffg, no wad, and the magic brown lube. :)


Accurate Molds is your friend (and mine). You want more mass for bears but the REALs are what shoot better, modify the REAL design.

I have both the 250 and 320 grn REAL molds for my Lyman Deerstalker as I’d want more mass or wind bucking capabilities for bigger/windy days. I haven’t worked with the smaller mold at all, and very little with the heavier, but I keep thinking how I’d much prefer a bigger meplat on it.

Have you tried any sort of Great Plains style? It seems those may sit on the powder charge well for hunting too from what I’ve been told. I’ve been thinking of finding some to try before I try a mold, otherwise I’d likely just go back to Accurate as he’s done me nicely and it’s my pistol bullets.

Though I liked a lot of it, I never understood the reason for making a perfect circle. Maybe he just wanted to slow down a bit. Still good, just different.
 
And is that performing well on deer/elk? (I don't doubt that it would do great on deer)

Rodwha I don't believe anyone makes a great plains in .58 caliber. ? The 456 grain REAL has plenty of mass and diameter...but it is short on S.D., it's really more of a pistol bullet...just kind of a super gigantic pistol bullet. I've never killed anything with it yet, but I would expect good results, as a .58" round ball isn't anything to sneeze at, and it should outperform it. But, I don't think the .58" Rifled Muskets like the 1861 will shoot/stabilize a bullet much longer than the REAL, unless it a minie with a hollow skirt.

I did just get some Great Plains 385 grain bullets for a free .50" TC Hawken with a trashed bore, I picked up, and put on a new ebay-barrel. It's loaded up, but I haven't got around to shooting some. Them is expensive! I did shoot some of the 240 grain Hornady PA conicals in it, and she did okay, but I'm hoping for more accuracy, and power from the 385's. And I want to save the PA's for my Lyman Plains Pistol. It likes them a lot.
 
And is that performing well on deer/elk? (I don't doubt that it would do great on deer)

Rodwha I don't believe anyone makes a great plains in .58 caliber. ? The 456 grain REAL has plenty of mass and diameter...but it is short on S.D., it's really more of a pistol bullet...just kind of a super gigantic pistol bullet. I've never killed anything with it yet, but I would expect good results, as a .58" round ball isn't anything to sneeze at, and it should outperform it. But, I don't think the .58" Rifled Muskets like the 1861 will shoot/stabilize a bullet much longer than the REAL, unless it a minie with a hollow skirt.

I did just get some Great Plains 385 grain bullets for a free .50" TC Hawken with a trashed bore, I picked up, and put on a new ebay-barrel. It's loaded up, but I haven't got around to shooting some. Them is expensive! I did shoot some of the 240 grain Hornady PA conicals in it, and she did okay, but I'm hoping for more accuracy, and power from the 385's. And I want to save the PA's for my Lyman Plains Pistol. It likes them a lot.

Yeah, don’t know if a GP type bullet exists for a .58, but figured it a cheap try if there was. Accurate will make you most anything your heart desires. I figured if nothing else you could modify the REAL design to have a bigger meplat. Still a shorter pistol length bullet but with more mass (SD) and a much, much bigger hole if no expansion is to be had, and still bigger if there is. I’m a fan of a big meplat by the way...
 
I too believe in the metplat. I cast the REAL out of pure lead, so it should get some expansion. If the "new" load shoots as accurately as I believe it's going to, (need to wait until season is over before I can take the time to shoot some groups) I'll be quite happy. Again, I've had good results with it in the past, just have never achieved "fine" accuracy, (just "good") and again, never really good consistency. And I do want it to "work". In that big long heavy rifle, a slug just seems more "appropriate". With 80 grains of fffg and that long barrel, I'm thinking that 456 grain bullet is producing some decent hoss-power.

I don't get real "mental" over fine accuracy either. If I can keep them on the paper plate, with any rifle, at 100 yards, over and over, and consistently, I'll hunt with the rifle and have confidence in it. But when it throws flyers now and then, that makes me mental! :)

The REAL is a good bullet in .58". In comparison with other bullets, it is short. But it is longer than a round ball, and can't perform any worse, and the round ball works fine in .58 caliber, to say the least. If my '61 would shoot consistently accurately with round ball, and a good hunting charge, I'd be happy with it. But having it throw one way high and right, from a cold clean barrel the other day, that kind of squashed my enthusiasm for the round ball, in that rifle.

I probably won't have a different bullet made, that would still be a crap-shoot as far as designing something that would work. That could get expensive if it took two or three, or more tries, but "if" I did, I think a a "Great Plains" type bullet, of around 450 grains might work, (but perhaps no advantage over the REAL mold I have now, which comes out of the mold at 456grains) or the REAL, slightly lengthened to 500 grains, and with a larger metplat, would probably work well. Or not. ??? :)
 
Just thought of something. I guy could make a jig, that allowed one to shave the nose down a bit on the REAL, increasing the size of the metplat. ? Just taking off 1/6" of an inch would increase the size quite a bit.
 
I would agree. If you think about it, 70 grains of powder, and around a 500 grain bullet, kind of reminds me of a .45-70 or a .50-70. Those two knocked over a "couple" of buffalo back in the day. As I always stand a chance to encounter Grizz, I tend to favor powder charges between 80 &100. But at point-blank, bad-breath range, a ".58-70" would probably cause Grizz to have a pretty bad day. :) I probably tend to over-think the Grizz-thing.
 
In that big long heavy rifle, a slug just seems more "appropriate". With 80 grains of fffg and that long barrel, I'm thinking that 456 grain bullet is producing some decent hoss-power.

Have you considered 2Fg?
A 405 grain lead slug from a .45-70 Government using black powder has harvested a lot of bison, and stopped quite a few bears. 80 grains with a .570 slug weighing 456 starts out as an even bigger hole, hitting as well if not better than the .45-70.

Have you thought about round ball? Grizzly were harvested with .530 round ball by the Corps of Discovery, so a .570 would be nothing to dismiss. You should know that the classic Minnie was NOT liked by hunters who were going after dangerous game as the shape of that particular conical tended to deflect inside the animal. I'd use the REAL or a round ball before a Civil War style Minnie. My source is The Sporting Rifle and It's Projectiles by James Forsyth 1867.

LD
 
Yes, as soon as season ends and I can get down to some serious shooting with the '61, I will try ffg. Right now I don't want to change any variable and jinx it. I agree, in that long barrel, ffg should be a little more "appropriate".

Yes, I did quite a bit of doodling around with round ball in this rifle. It shows "promise", but I get an occasional bad flyer, which is a real bummer for hunting. In fact, I had it loaded with round ball for this season, then last week or so I took a shot just to make sure she's "on", just to "verify". Also it had been loaded for a while. I don't believe in black powder "absorbing moisture from the air", but still thought I'd put a fresh load in it. Maybe I had nothing better to do. !

As mentioned, that shot went far enough high and right that it would have been a miss on a deer, and probably a butt shot or something on an elk. So, as the REAL usually shoots good for me, I loaded one up, tried a different powder charge, forgot to add the wad, used a different lube, (changing three variables at once! Genius!) and she drilled that plate dead-center...so, I "think" I've hit on the load she likes. I'm confident "enough" that if I get a shot with it, she'll shoot where she's looking. !!!

In early California, when the state was really thick and over-run with grizz, a somewhat common "bear rifle" was a .58" with a super heavy barrel on it, that would take an extra heavy powder charge. Those rifles knocked grizz down no problem. !!!! Saw one in a museum, was much like a Hawken, half stocked rifle, but the barrel was like 1&1/4" across the flats or something like that. Maybe more, it was a real fat barrel.
 
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