Single stack DA compacts w/ hammers: what’s left?

DAO guns can often be really good deals, as so many seem to be scared to death of the triggers. When I sold my P245, I ended up replacing the DAO trigger with the original DA trigger for just that reason.

The DAO trigger was also the reason I got such a great deal on it when I bought it.

I just picked up a Sig P220 Carry, which is a .45 ACP, but also fits the "single stack DA compact w/hammer" criteria. It's one heck of a pistol.

This will give you an idea as to how silly SIG's idea of what "compact" is and how little it really makes a difference in reality. Top gun is a 220, middle, 220 Carry, bottom, 245 (220 Compact)



Ive carried all three, and actually carried the 245 as a BUG to my 220, as it can use the 220's mags.

The difference here is a lot like the Glock 17/19/26 deal, but with less of a difference in size between the biggest and smallest. The middle gun with either is really a "why bother" kind of thing, but I think thats more in peoples heads, than any kind of reality.

In SIG's case, the 220 Carry is more relatable to the 220, as the 45 is to the 17.

If 380 will do, there’s the PPK and Bersa Thunder.

@Zendude I assume you still have a shoot your R51 in your avatar? How's yours been for you? I have the 2nd gen and haven't had any problems with mine. I bought it for $200 new (couldn't pass it up), which in my mind was a steal as they are very well built and an interesting design. I would pick up another 2nd Gen if I found one again for $200.

Seecamp. They are being made, they use single-column-magazines, are DAO, are hammer-fired, and are very, very compact. Notably, the inventor had been a soldier, during WW2, on Germany’s Eastern Front, who was wounded during close-range action, which influenced the design concept.

Not only is the trigger mechanism DA, but it is adult-sized DA, as the trigger pivot point is located well-forward. Pistols as large as the Kahr K9 have triggers that pivot too close to my hand, forcing me to carefully bend my trigger finger “just so,” to shoot them well. The trigger of a Seecamp feels like shooting a full-sized duty pistol. I have managed to accumulate several of the LWS-32, and still have a mid-Eighties LWS-25, which has no firing pin, that I used to use as a training prop, for police trainees to locate, during searches.

I am not “advocating/promoting” .32 ACP for personal defense. The .32 ACP simply is what it is. The user chooses his own salvation. Personally, when I carry an LWS-32, it is usually accompanied by a larger weapon.

AK103K said:

The difference here is a lot like the Glock 17/19/26 deal, but with less of a difference in size between the biggest and smallest. The middle gun with either is really a "why bother" kind of thing, but I think thats more in peoples heads, than any kind of reality.

In SIG's case, the 220 Carry is more relatable to the 220, as the 45 is to the 17.

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That's because nearly every gun company on the planet did it SIG's way (which was really the 1911 Government (military gun size), Commader (LE gun size), Officer (concealment size) Model way) except for Glock until the G45/G19X was released.

AK103K said:

The difference here is a lot like the Glock 17/19/26 deal, but with less of a difference in size between the biggest and smallest. The middle gun with either is really a "why bother" kind of thing, but I think thats more in peoples heads, than any kind of reality.

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Can't say I fully agree. I don't think you get any advantages, ballistically, or sight radius out of a 4.25" barrel over a 4" and the balance and ease of carry (sitting OWB or jamming it IWB) are noticable to me, significantly. Also, for me and a few guys I know, anything longer than 4" gets harder to get a good clear sight picture with fading (for them) or colorblind eyesight.

Personally I wish they made a "carry" version of the 226.

It seems the 4" barrel, full grip style must have advantages if you look at how many "duty" size guns follow that pattern, with only Glock being so late to the party.

I do agree on the 245, doesn't really carry all that much smaller. I actually ended up just carrying mine with a 220 mag and an xgrip myself, basically the 220 carry and it worked fine.

BreechFace said:

@Zendude I assume you still have a shoot your R51 in your avatar? How's yours been for you? I have the 2nd gen and haven't had any problems with mine. I bought it for $200 new (couldn't pass it up), which in my mind was a steal as they are very well built and an interesting design.

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Yes, I still shoot mine and carry it. It is not as reliable with some large hollow points as one would desire, but it is very reliable with ball and defense ammo that uses ARX bullets. The reason I carry it is that, for me, I can shoot it more accurately than my other guns, the only exception being a 1911. I also like having a grip safety without a thumb safety.

Ohen Cepel said:

I was going to say Ruger LC9 but they seem to only make the s (striker) version now... .

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AND
“Zendude: if 380 will do, there’s the PPK and Bersa Thunder.”

There are many reasons to not like the 9mm answer, but the Kel Tec PF9 is a hammer fired single stack that is still being produced. The DAO action is partially cocked like the S&W 5946 and similar 3gen S&W’s.

In .380acp there are also the Kel Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP2 - same partiality cocked action, but single stack hammer fired.

Pre-panic-demic, I bought two single-stack Third-Generation S&W single-column-mag 9mm autos, a 3913 TSW, and a 908, locally, in used-very-little condition. I almost added another 908, but someone else finally bought it first. I reckoned that the pair-and-a-spare concept would have merit, as spare parts dwindle in availability, but I also sourced some pre-owned small parts through the evil bay.

These two pistols are mostly kept in reserve, for now. Compact 9mm pistols started really hurting my aging right thumb, hand, and wrist about three years ago, but I reckon that I am going to switch to left-side “primary,” anyway, sooner or later. I am functionally ambidextrous with most handguns, and chose to carry at 0300, in 1983/1984, but DA/SA is better done with my more-skilled left hand. (I write lefty, and throw righty.)

I had prior experience with a 3913 and a 3953, in the Nineties. I preferred the 3953, and sold the 3913 to a police colleague, for his wife to use as a duty pistol. A dear friend ended up with the 3953, during a 5-year period when I decided to concentrate on the 1911 as my only auto-pistol system.

sgt127 said:

Ya know. I always liked a Double Action trigger or an off switch on a carry gun, particularly when I carry appendix.

I was wrong, apparently.

As long as I keep my “booger hook off the bang switch”.

Carry with the trigger covered and keep draw strings and stuff out of the way....

It’s perfectly reasonable to carry a cocked pistol. Without an off switch.

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So that's a striker-fired SAA? Interesting.

Or is it just a false equivalency?

Larry

sgt127 said:

Ya know. I always liked a Double Action trigger or an off switch on a carry gun, particularly when I carry appendix.

I was wrong, apparently.

As long as I keep my “booger hook off the bang switch”.

Carry with the trigger covered and keep draw strings and stuff out of the way....

It’s perfectly reasonable to carry a cocked pistol. Without an off switch.

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I know you are being facetious but you missed a key component to the argument, and that's a proper holster that protects the trigger properly.

Anyone who doesn’t believe the majority of striker fired guns are cocked and unlocked pistols needs to look into it a little more.

Almost all of them have enough stored energy, in their carry mode, to fire.

It was only when Glock came out and used the phrase “safe action” that there was a huge shift to carrying around cocked and unlocked pistols.

I had to carry a Glock for about 12 years. They are perfectly good guns. I only carry a cocked pistol on my right hip. That includes 1911’s, Glocks etc.

No one here would think to carry a slung AR, even with the safety on, pointed under their chin.

Yet, pointing a cocked pistol, with no mechanical safety, at their femoral artery is acceptable to many.

And, that’s great. For those that want to.

sgt127 said:

Anyone who doesn’t believe the majority of striker fired guns are cocked and unlocked pistols needs to look into it a little more.

Almost all of them have enough stored energy, in their carry mode, to fire.

It was only when Glock came out and used the phrase “safe action” that there was a huge shift to carrying around cocked and unlocked pistols.

I had to carry a Glock for about 12 years. They are perfectly good guns. I only carry a cocked pistol on my right hip. That includes 1911’s, Glocks etc.

No one here would think to carry a slung AR, even with the safety on, pointed under their chin.

Yet, pointing a cocked pistol, with no mechanical safety, at their femoral artery is acceptable to many.

And, that’s great. For those that want to.

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Glock's "safe action" was a valid marketing tool as the design implemented 3 safeties in order to be safe carrying firing pins with stored energy, at a time when no one would consider carrying a SA without a safety. The three safeties; firing bin blocks, trigger safety and drop safety are just as safe as a 1911 with grip safety and manual safety (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but doesn't matter to me), it always comes back to keep you hand off the trigger until ready to fire.

I'm not there on AIWB carry, too uncomfortable and the idea of where the gun is pointed (regardless of type of gun) concerns me. But 3-4 oclock carry there is no concern with a good kydex holster that covers the trigger guard.

sgt127 said:

Anyone who doesn’t believe the majority of striker fired guns are cocked and unlocked pistols needs to look into it a little more.

Almost all of them have enough stored energy, in their carry mode, to fire. (SNIP)

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If you have disabled the firing pin block safety.

Which you shouldn't do.

Larry

It might clarify a discussion of safeties to distinguish between drop safeties and a trigger safety. One (obviously) pertains to preventing the gun from discharging as a result of an impact. The other prevents a discharge in case material comes into contact with the trigger for whatever unwanted reason.
Risk is a sliding scale and people have different comfort levels along that scale.

The Beretta Pico is a true DAO hammer fired "second strike capable" hammer fired .380, unlike most. They appear to be overlooked by the pocket .380 crowd. It fits your criteria if you need something to fill a smaller role. I think the Desert Eagle Micro functions the same but it may be closer to the size of 2 Picos side by side!

I always thought "second strike" was a bad idea and a bad habit to pick up.

I think if your gun is giving you light stikes/FTF's, you need to find another gun.

Pulling the trigger again on a dud round is just wasting time, and not the proper response.

AK103K said:

I always thought "second strike" was a bad idea and a bad habit to pick up.

I think if your gun is giving you light stikes/FTF's, you need to find another gun.

Pulling the trigger again on a dud round is just wasting time, and not the proper response.

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Agreed, failure to fire should be an immediate response to rack the slide and get back into action. There are a lot of situations where one doesn't have the benefit of time to take a chance on a second strike on the primer.

Double strike capability could be useful in the off chance that you find yourself in a self defense situation with the use of only one hand.

Add the Remington RM380 to the list of DAO double strike pocket guns.

99.8% of the time, a round in an auto that didn't go off on the first strike, wont go off on the second. At least that's been my personal experience. And you shouldn't be training your brain to stop and react and assess the problem, you should be training it to do a TRB and be getting right back into action.

The only time Ive seen different has been with revolvers, which for some reason, seem to be more prone to "fail to fire" malfunctions. And most of those Ive encountered were with guns that people tried to lighten the trigger (generally a backed out strain screw) and were the cause of the main problem. Even then, about 50% of those still didnt fire on the second strike.

BreechFace said:

Para LDA 9mm they call it a "light double action" hence LDA, don't know how difficult it would be to find one.

Don't have any personal experience in one just know of it in my searches 10 years ago for the exact same thing you are processing. I ended up with a CZ PCR but it's a slim double stack with the thin grip panels and DA/SA, not what you were looking for.

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I have a para companion LDA C7.45. Excellent gun, but a 45 so its a full size with a 3" or so barrel. Though much handier than a M1911A1. I dont think they are made anymore? The 9mm LDA would be a sweet winter carry gun.

My NAA guardian fits the criteria, but is a DAO and has no grippable spur on the hammer. And its a sub-compact with the heft of a fullsize lol

AK103K said:

99.8% of the time, a round in an auto that didn't go off on the first strike, wont go off on the second. At least that's been my personal experience. And you shouldn't be training your brain to stop and react and assess the problem, you should be training it to do a TRB and be getting right back into action.

The only time Ive seen different has been with revolvers, which for some reason, seem to be more prone to "fail to fire" malfunctions. And most of those Ive encountered were with guns that people tried to lighten the trigger (generally a backed out strain screw) and were the cause of the main problem. Even then, about 50% of those still didnt fire on the second strike.

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I actually have found quite a few of the rounds that failed to fire, for me, will go on a second strike. After I find them on the ground because I definitely TRB immediately.

I will note, however, that the failed rounds with good primer dimples might not shoot after a second Glock strike, but will pop after I put it in one of my Sig's or Wilson.

Also worth noting I'm talking about my hand loads with Winchester primers or CCI. Haven't shot factory loads in a fair number of years, apart from JHP defense ammo to verify a gun, and have never had a failure with premium ammo yet.

Elkins45 said:

I was wondering how long it would be before the “carry a light trigger, it’s a training issue” crowd came out.

You are welcome to your opinions. I will still continue to appreciate being able to keep my thumb on an exposed hammer when reholstering, and not worrying about if my zipper pull or jacket drawstring is about to shoot me in the leg. The term “Glock leg” didn’t appear out of thin air.

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Maybe a Walther pps m2, it has the striker indicator thingie that you can put your thumb on while holstering.