The original range finder, it's right in front of you.
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WestKentucky
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For a while there were stickers that could be put on bow sights to help estimate range based upon a deers body size. I don’t remember if it was foot to back or belly to back, but an average sized deer would appear to be so big in the sight and would give a quick estimate. I didn’t like them much, and didn’t use them, therefore I shot under a whole bunch of deer before I finally gave up and started ranging a target rather than guessing. I could guess accurately enough, but when the adrenaline pumps with a deer in the sights I always forgot and just went with whatever felt right. Some jumped string, some squatted out, but most just flat out got missed. After that bit of fun I figured out how big a deer was at 100 and 200 yards in a scope set on low power and I just went from there. I tried not to shoot further unless it was a monster or late in season. My longest shot (Before I did this) I estimated at 300 and I killed the deer the next rise back at 600. Luckily I pulled my shot high and the buck was a touch better than I expected. Still not a monster, but better.
illinoisburt
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Holdover and adjusting sights can be a wonderful thing however the only real advantage is likely going to be on paper. With most centerfires that have a point blank zero of 0 50/+2 100/0 200/-8 300 there is realistically not much concern with range estimation. If anything, a lot of people end up shooting over animals for just such reason. Just like with an optic, get a good zero and practice. If the quarry is small enough and you aim true enough that point-blank variation is too great a variable then an optic might improve the situation more than guessing distance with a sight post.
One of the greatest shooting experiences I've had recently was a shot I made on a 40-yd. pebble in a 10 mph xwind using my little 1377 Crosman air pistol. The 10 gr. pellet at 400 fps. (according to Chairgun ballistics program stats) called for XX MOA of windage (don't have stats with me now). I'd calcd. the windage in MOA of my front sight post width relative to the sight radius (to my eye from sitting). I'd also calcd the vertical reference ( sight radius= front sight to rear sight), and got setup, aimed the calcd interpolative distance above the pebble along the front sight and something like 2 windage units into the wind and nailed it. It was so cool to see that pebble fly off the side of the dirt road...and that's what it's all about--reward and satisfaction IMO.
Another time we were shooting at a thousand-yd. target when somebody asked how big it was. So we used a buddies mil-dot reticle at the optics highest power (not the mil-std. power) to "reverse-mil" the subtension at optic's highest power, then milled the thousand-yd. target in effect "reverse-milling" the target size and came up with like 30" (been awhile). When we measured the target it was .3" off from calcd.--couldn't believe it. Have done this sort of thing many times using calcd. subtension systems and absolutely know it has merit (i.e. better than guessing).
Another time we were shooting at a thousand-yd. target when somebody asked how big it was. So we used a buddies mil-dot reticle at the optics highest power (not the mil-std. power) to "reverse-mil" the subtension at optic's highest power, then milled the thousand-yd. target in effect "reverse-milling" the target size and came up with like 30" (been awhile). When we measured the target it was .3" off from calcd.--couldn't believe it. Have done this sort of thing many times using calcd. subtension systems and absolutely know it has merit (i.e. better than guessing).
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jmorris
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Why I prefer KNS posts on iron AR’s and globe sights on other precision rifles without optics.
Varminterror
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Nah, unlike the OP, Sheldon wouldn’t have done half circle math under the guise of full circle math, certainly not without acknowledging his choice to do so.
MarshallDodge
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Are you saying that you can consistently measure targets with a mildot reticle down to .025 mil accuracy?
SterlingBullet
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Somebody has to know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows a guy at the DoD who can just call in a drone strike ; easy peasey.
Been my experience that deer don't subtend well (with optics) since there's too much variation in target size, but antelope are much more consistent depending on subtension and max range for that particular subtension-obviously the smaller the subtension the better the accuracy.This is one of the reasons I use 1.8 IPHY in the equation for 1/2 mil reticles...and if I can get that smaller by increasing magnification I do.
entropy
Member
There are 0 degrees in a radius. A radius is a straight line that equals 1/2 of a given diameter. It is a straight line measurement, not an arc measurement.
MarshallDodge
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No sir, just wanted to make sure we were being realistic here.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
Well, to thoroughly confuse this discussion I merely use Nicon Laser Rangefinder and then slide the adjuster on my old surplus rifles to the appropriate distance (in meters) and amaze myself at how accurate they are.
MD--in the interest of seeing about how lucky I was that day, I Just looked at the math and assuming a 1/2 mil subtension (1.8 IPHY) if the target was 23.4" (about that size--it's been awhile) figuring an interpolation accuracy of +/- .1 from 1.3 subtension units then there's only +/- 1.8" variation from that measurement. Interesting really--love this schit!
Have to add this comment though sir--it's interesting to note that calculating target size using subtension is not nearly as critical as the range to which subtension rangefinding is accurate. I've found the accuracy of rangefinding is definitely limited if you assume an interpolative accuracy of approx. +/- .1 of any subtension unit.
Also it's Cool, besides just saying the word subtension makes you look like your smart, huh? HA!
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entropy
Member
It makes one look even smarter to use the correct word, which is subtention.
Garandimal
member
Correct.
(1°/60)Tan = X/3600"
(1°/60)Tan(3600") = 1.047197581"
360° in a circle, sport.
Thanks for playin'.
GR
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Skylerbone
Member
My method is downright cheating compared to most of the above. I’ve been replacing my scopes with side focus models of late. At the range, I check the clarity of each at known yardages of 100 and 200 yards (they aren’t exact when parallax is truly eliminated but ballpark).
And so, knowing the ballpark range to 250 yards using my scopes parallax adjustment alone allows me to coarse adjust within those distances quickly in the field. Similar to PBR zero but I chart the drop and adjust elevation.
No major wind considers inside of there for my field conditions so it works well enough, and I can keep my 100 yard zero for confirmation at any time. Is that all I do in the field? Hell no! I laser everything in my FOV and tie it off. A few streamers don’t bother the deer while offering yardage markers with wind indicators built in.
I may suck at math but I’ve stocked plenty of batteries for the apocalypse.
And so, knowing the ballpark range to 250 yards using my scopes parallax adjustment alone allows me to coarse adjust within those distances quickly in the field. Similar to PBR zero but I chart the drop and adjust elevation.
No major wind considers inside of there for my field conditions so it works well enough, and I can keep my 100 yard zero for confirmation at any time. Is that all I do in the field? Hell no! I laser everything in my FOV and tie it off. A few streamers don’t bother the deer while offering yardage markers with wind indicators built in.
I may suck at math but I’ve stocked plenty of batteries for the apocalypse.
Garandimal
member
Here's another tip:
Leupold VX scopes?
...on low power setting, "post point-to-post point" subtends ~ 15 MOA.
... and ~ 5 MOA on high power.
Which (low power) puts a ~ 15" "brisket-to-back" at 200 yards from "post point-to-cross hair."
Or (mid power) puts a ~ 15" "brisket-to-back" at 300 yards from "post point-to-cross hair."
Or (high power) puts a ~ 15" "brisket-to-back" at 300 yards from "post point-to-post point."
GR
Leupold VX scopes?
...on low power setting, "post point-to-post point" subtends ~ 15 MOA.
... and ~ 5 MOA on high power.
Which (low power) puts a ~ 15" "brisket-to-back" at 200 yards from "post point-to-cross hair."
Or (mid power) puts a ~ 15" "brisket-to-back" at 300 yards from "post point-to-cross hair."
Or (high power) puts a ~ 15" "brisket-to-back" at 300 yards from "post point-to-post point."
GR
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illinoisburt
Member
Are you seriously dialing distance for 250 yard shots at deer? I understand if you are shooting subsonics or pistol calibers and such, but that doesn't make much sense for any centerfire with muzzle velocity over 2500 fps.
Skylerbone
Member
Yes for muzzleloaders and straight wall cartridge. It may be an inch or two in some cases or a gut shot in others.
Garandimal
member
Vern Humphrey
Member
The rule is "hair under the sight." Never aim at thin air.
Let's imagine you have a .30-06 launching a 180 grain bullet at 2,820 fps (standard Hornady load.) If you zero to put the bullet 3" high at 100 yards (assuming you're using a reasonable scope -- not one of the monsters I see in the field nowadays) you'll be about 9 1/2 to 10 inches low at 350 yards. If the deer is 350 yards away (and that's waaaaay out there) and you hold just below the backbone, you'll get a perfect hit.
The rule is, a tad low when they're really close, under the backbone when they're way out there, and dead on for all other shots.
IF you can judge wind!!
Let's imagine you have a .30-06 launching a 180 grain bullet at 2,820 fps (standard Hornady load.) If you zero to put the bullet 3" high at 100 yards (assuming you're using a reasonable scope -- not one of the monsters I see in the field nowadays) you'll be about 9 1/2 to 10 inches low at 350 yards. If the deer is 350 yards away (and that's waaaaay out there) and you hold just below the backbone, you'll get a perfect hit.
The rule is, a tad low when they're really close, under the backbone when they're way out there, and dead on for all other shots.
IF you can judge wind!!
kBob
Member
Actually the original range finder is the "Appearence of Objects" You look at the target and SWAG how far away it is.
In the 1970's this was taught in the US and Other Armies and there are references to it being taught during the American Civil War. At one point we tried to get a community commander to allow us to place painted plywood cutt outs of Warsaw pack Infantry under arms on various buildings in our Kasserne and plot spots to stand on so the trainer knew actual distance to several targets and the trainee had to estimate. We planned several observation spots so the same targets could be used at different ranges. Unfortunately the Community Commander was a USAF Radar commander and thought we Infantry that lived on "His" Kasserne were savages at best and thought Warsaw pact images provocative... we went ahead and figured out ranges from say the flag pole to the corner of the gym, our mess hall, the Engineer's barracks and the PX annex and would have one of our guys go stand next to those items and train our newbees range estimation that way
One Military competition I was at in Germany in 1974 featured solders with rifles Standing, kneeling or prone ( live soldiers) at ranges from 200 to 600 meters and one was graded on accuracy to Plus or minus 35 meters at all those ranges.
I liked using a good military map (which are basically available on line now) as an aid to range finding. If you know were you are and then where you are on the map you can find points on the ground and measure the distance to them on the map. Then estimate range to target by comparing the target distance to the know point or relative to the known point. This was VERY common in artillery and Mortar call for fire, but worked as well for Infantry on Infantry, especially if you had been in a defensive position long enough to prepare "Range Cards" also known as a "sector sketch" this was a drawing of what was to your front and in your sector of observation and engagement with objects marked as to range and direction from your position. It works.
-kBob
In the 1970's this was taught in the US and Other Armies and there are references to it being taught during the American Civil War. At one point we tried to get a community commander to allow us to place painted plywood cutt outs of Warsaw pack Infantry under arms on various buildings in our Kasserne and plot spots to stand on so the trainer knew actual distance to several targets and the trainee had to estimate. We planned several observation spots so the same targets could be used at different ranges. Unfortunately the Community Commander was a USAF Radar commander and thought we Infantry that lived on "His" Kasserne were savages at best and thought Warsaw pact images provocative... we went ahead and figured out ranges from say the flag pole to the corner of the gym, our mess hall, the Engineer's barracks and the PX annex and would have one of our guys go stand next to those items and train our newbees range estimation that way
One Military competition I was at in Germany in 1974 featured solders with rifles Standing, kneeling or prone ( live soldiers) at ranges from 200 to 600 meters and one was graded on accuracy to Plus or minus 35 meters at all those ranges.
I liked using a good military map (which are basically available on line now) as an aid to range finding. If you know were you are and then where you are on the map you can find points on the ground and measure the distance to them on the map. Then estimate range to target by comparing the target distance to the know point or relative to the known point. This was VERY common in artillery and Mortar call for fire, but worked as well for Infantry on Infantry, especially if you had been in a defensive position long enough to prepare "Range Cards" also known as a "sector sketch" this was a drawing of what was to your front and in your sector of observation and engagement with objects marked as to range and direction from your position. It works.
-kBob
Garandimal
member
I like "light under the cross hair."
As it is essentially self-correcting.
A little light at 400 yards is considerably more than a little light at 300.
GR
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