Glock 19 and the USMC?

Status
Not open for further replies.
MARSOC isn't part of JSOC. I have never seen anyone from NAVSPECWAR (except maybe attached/support personnel) using a M9 , and I worked with them off and on since the early 90's. I have seen them carrying Sig, HK, and Glock. The only 1911 pistols I have seen in the navy were vintage ones used by security personnel on ships or by seabees as a sidearm in Africa- not because they were "special", just because their stuff was really old. I have never seen a Glock pistol anywhere in the DOD outside of the SOF community.

M9s are the least common among the SEALs I know. Most prefer the P226. According to those that do, M9 is only preferred for logistical reasons. Ability to get magazines, holsters, service in the field etc. 1911s are even less common among SEALs. Chris Kyle even admitted to carrying one on a few missions. More are moving to the Glock 19. I remember hearing the 75th changing over as well.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2013/2/7/interview-with-navy-seal-sniper-chris-kyle/
 
Chris Kyle even admitted to carrying one on a few missions.
Kyle notably carried a Springfield Armory TRP on at least one deployment (until it became damaged; IIRC he claimed it stopped a bullet) but he was also known to have carried a SIG P-220 in Iraq. My last deployment was '05 and the only pistol I noted any SEALs carrying was the 226 and the only pistol I ever saw among the jarheads was the M9 (and I was on a Marine base).
I would love to have a retired USMC M45, just because of what it is. I do have a Springfield TRP operator, which my $ says is at least as good as the M45.
Same here; when the new Colt came out, my LGS had a few in stock (at the original MSRP of around $1495); I strongly considered buying one but then thought I'd wait -- didn't expect the demand for them, or that the supply would dry up. Personally, I consider the TRP one of the best production 1911 values out there, along with a couple of the full-size Dan Wesson models.
 
Kyle notably carried a Springfield Armory TRP on at least one deployment (until it became damaged; IIRC he claimed it stopped a bullet) but he was also known to have carried a SIG P-220 in Iraq
If he had a TRP and a 220, he bought those guns himself and got away with using them on deployment. That happens sometimes, even though it is not supposed to, and is a conversation I'm not willing to have here. Not only is it in violation of military regs (no matter who you are) in many cases it is contrary to international law as it applies to "importation".
 
f he had a TRP and a 220, he bought those guns himself and got away with using them on deployment. That happens sometimes, even though it is not supposed to, and is a conversation I'm not willing to have here. Not only is it in violation of military regs (no matter who you are) in many cases it is contrary to international law as it applies to "importation".
No disagreement there. I never saw a personally-owned firearm in theater (that I was aware of) during numerous overseas deployments. I was there when an original order came out from CENTCOM specifically forbidding personally-owned firearms.
 
To be clear here...

What any of the various SpecOps organizations may utilize does NOT necessarily reflect what their associate military branch would under general procurement. Those organizations have different requirements and funding allocated specifically to meet their mission objectives, however they justify them. Therefore, if they judge that a Glock meets their mission objectives, they will purchase some Glocks accordingly.

You are not likely to ever see a sidearm pistol without a REAL manual safety. This has long been a design criteria for the military as a whole. Therefore, if Glocks were ever to be generally procured for the various military branches, it would have a real, manual safety. Hence the Glock G19 entry design a few years ago.

But Glock lost out on the bid to the SIG Sauer P320, so the military does NOT have any Glocks.
 
Agree with almost all of what you said but with one question, who owns the Glock's then that are used by the SpecOps, if not the military?

Re-read what I posted.

"What any of the various SpecOps organizations may utilize does NOT necessarily reflect what their associate military branch would under general procurement. Those organizations have different requirements and funding allocated specifically to meet their mission objectives, however they justify them. Therefore, if they judge that a Glock meets their mission objectives, they will purchase some Glocks accordingly."

This means that while Glocks MAY be purchased in small amounts to support SpecOps organizations, they are NOT general procurement and issue sidearms.

That is the intent of my posting. The "military" as a whole does not have any Glocks...only specific organizations within them IF those agencies deem them mission essential.
 
This means that while Glocks MAY be purchased in small amounts to support SpecOps organizations, they are NOT general procurement and issue sidearms.

That is the intent of my posting. The "military" as a whole does not have any Glocks...only specific organizations within them IF those agencies deem them mission essential.

This was my point as well based on my understanding. Glock 19 getting issued a NSN does not mean every service member in every branch will get one. News articles of any special unit switching to Glock are good publicity for the company, but separate from the reality. Many police organizations work off an approved firearm list for their officers. You can carry X, Y, Z as a duty weapon if conditions are met. Special units operate in a similar way, working off a list. The Glock 19 may fit one mission where something else fits another.

With every firearm change there have been drifters in inventory. As a whole, the DOD is moving to the Sig 320 aka Sig M17 M18. There are still M9s in inventory. And I am sure there are still 1911s in inventory somewhere as well.
 
I really like the credence a lot of people give to any particular handgun the military may buy and the endless hours of entertaining debate people have over them!

It's almost as if they don't understand how low any sidearm at all ranks as a military weapon...

:neener:

Bottom line for these people (especially those who don't understand the military due to lack of experience) is that the military offers a contract for these pistols which meet certain criteria. Various companies interested in getting a pot of money from the government will submit their own designs, with factory examples, in a bid for the contract. Those submissions are then evaluated based on the criteria requested and ultimately one is selected.

That's it. Any of the various selections MIGHT have been perfectly acceptable based on their evaluations, but only one wins out for whatever reason(s).

(Glock's entry choice, I believe, lost out to SIG Sauer's because the Glock scored a bit lower on the modularity capabilities.)

Other than that...it's a side arm that goes "BANG!" when you pull the trigger. And, for the military, it's also the lowest powered, lowest ranged, least capable rifled firearm a servicemember can carry.

And it's as subject to personal preferences just like any other.
 
Re-read what I posted.

"What any of the various SpecOps organizations may utilize does NOT necessarily reflect what their associate military branch would under general procurement. Those organizations have different requirements and funding allocated specifically to meet their mission objectives, however they justify them. Therefore, if they judge that a Glock meets their mission objectives, they will purchase some Glocks accordingly."

This means that while Glocks MAY be purchased in small amounts to support SpecOps organizations, they are NOT general procurement and issue sidearms.

That is the intent of my posting. The "military" as a whole does not have any Glocks...only specific organizations within them IF those agencies deem them mission essential.

When VF-33, Phantoms, made a WestPac cruise, Yankee Station, they open purchased/bought 32 S&W model
39s..instead of carrying the tired, old, S&W model 10 38s(I think that was the issue HG for aircrews in combat zones)....before my time in VF-33, BTW.
 
I found this interesting.....

Interesting sure, but there is a big reason why Glock will likely not be adopted as the standard DOD sidearm in my lifetime: manual safety. Commanders of all levels are concerned over firearm safety. And risk assessment matrices are a pain (or pleasure) from every officer from 4 star to second Lieutenant. And the military isn't going to pay for Glock to add a thumb safety for millions of firearms over the course of a contract. So while "elite" units can and do use them in small batches, Glock gets snubbed out of the competition for wide adoption. Recall that the reason why the 19X lost to the P320, was it wasn't modular enough and SIG could supply theirs cheaper.
 
Interesting sure, but there is a big reason why Glock will likely not be adopted as the standard DOD sidearm in my lifetime: manual safety. Commanders of all levels are concerned over firearm safety. And risk assessment matrices are a pain (or pleasure) from every officer from 4 star to second Lieutenant. And the military isn't going to pay for Glock to add a thumb safety for millions of firearms over the course of a contract. So while "elite" units can and do use them in small batches, Glock gets snubbed out of the competition for wide adoption. Recall that the reason why the 19X lost to the P320, was it wasn't modular enough and SIG could supply theirs cheaper.

Well said. Big mil loves their "off switches". During my time in the M9 era in SOF, our pistols were retrofitted with brigadier slides, which came in a kit with the required slide stop, with dovetailed trijicon sights installed. This was to enhance durability of the pistol and prevent locking block failures (which it did to some degree- they still broke from time to time). They also made the pistol slightly more "top heavy", and it seemed like they reduced some felt recoil. We requested to get brig slides in the "G" configuration which didn't include a safety- the lever was a decock only on the G, but even for us at the time this wasn't approved. We carried our M9's with a round chambered, hammer down, weapon on fire. This was command-wide SOP. Of course, on a FOB, the pogues would get upset sometimes when they saw the red dot showing, so we would just cover it up with a black paint marker, or tell them to mind their own business. The Glock arms most LE in the US, and is standard issue in numerous other countries as a military sidearm. The fact that the US mil has such little confidence in most of our service members to utilize such a weapon and have an accident-free experience is very telling. Unfortunately, it is not without merit. The M9 is, by design, difficult to fire on purpose, yet service members still manage to have accidents with them, and every other weapon in the inventory if we are being 100% honest. This is obviously due to deficiencies in training, which is a completely different conversation- and an interesting one to have, since it involves a lack of knowledge on weapons within the organizations (DOD) which owns more weapons than any other entity on the globe.
 
Last time checked the Corps carries the greatest military sidearm in human history, the Colts M1911A1.

They are in a khaki camo color and have the new glow sights. Makes me proud to know those men are armed so well. I would not want a Glock if I were in their shoes.

Respectfully, perhaps you should check again.
 
The fact that the US mil has such little confidence in most of our service members to utilize such a weapon and have an accident-free experience is very telling. Unfortunately, it is not without merit.
Well, in my experience (a quarter century on active duty), most of the personnel (excluding, of course, NSW, SOF and certain elements of the USMC) who regularly carried pistols (including in theater during our recent conflicts) were not always the front line warriors and simply didn't (and still don't) get the benefit of any advanced pistol training.

I could be wrong, but last time I looked at the results from the last military pistol trials, the cost differential between Glock and SIG wasn't that significant. Will have to look it up.
 
Wow. I don't see how Sig undercut Glock by that much money, especially considering all the cute little Transformer kits they designed for Small Statured Troopettes, etc.
 
Well, in my experience (a quarter century on active duty), most of the personnel (excluding, of course, NSW, SOF and certain elements of the USMC) who regularly carried pistols (including in theater during our recent conflicts) were not always the front line warriors and simply didn't (and still don't) get the benefit of any advanced pistol training.

I could be wrong, but last time I looked at the results from the last military pistol trials, the cost differential between Glock and SIG wasn't that significant. Will have to look it up.
You quoted my post regarding basic weapons safety, which is a different facet from advanced training, no matter the type of weapon or what one may consider "advanced training". The ability to carry an issued handgun (or any other weapon) and not have an accident of some type or other is a basic expectation of the user, regardless of the user's "pedigree". As far as an individual's ability with his or her issued weapon, the culture of indifference you mentioned must change in the military. The distinction between "front line warriors" and rear echelon personnel has blurred considerably in our current conflict. Handguns are often being issued as the force protection weapon of choice for these essential service members in large numbers. While someone who works in a motor pool at KAF or as a finance clerk at BAF may not be as close to the pointy end of the spear as a SEAL or Ranger, those support people need to be trained and prepared to at least defend themselves and survive, if nothing else. The increase in "insider attacks" that have been happening on our bases in recent years directly reflects this. Several years ago, a General Officer was murdered by a rogue afghan soldier on a coalition base with his US supplied M16 rifle. 14 other coalition service members were wounded, and the attacker was killed by members of a UK PSD team. This was not the only incident of this type, this was just one of the more well-known, since it involved a US general. Attacks of this type are the greatest threat to coalition personnel confined to bases. If one was to consider the fact that these attackers have easy access to things like machine guns, RPG's, grenades, and other explosives- along with a willingness to die instilled by terrorist radicalization and training- these threats really can't be understated, and the potential for incredible levels of destruction make the tragedies of mass shootings by crazy people in the US pale in comparison.
 

"Interesting"...but the article kind of makes eyes roll in some ways.

One of the submarines I served aboard was a SpecOps boat...the USS L. Mendel Rivers (SSN-686). She was modified to be capable of carrying a Dry Deck Shelter (DDS) topside, which housed a small submersible which SEAL teams could deploy to and from the boat while submerged.

Those SEAL guys were awesome, too, by the way.

On the general subject of what firearms they carried...the short answer was "whatever they considered necessary for their missions". In other words, if they believed any given sidearm, rifle, assault rifle, automatic weapon was necessary, then they got it.

And they trained with pretty much anything as a result, in order to be proficient with mission required equipment.

SpecOps budgets for these matters, while not "blank checks", allowed for exactly this. (Not saying this is identical across all the branches.)

So the article title stating "How the U.S. Military Slowly Fell in Love with Glock" is misleading. We're talking about very small, exceedingly elite, SpecOps communities. Not the military overall. And their reasons for obtaining any of the weapons they (SpecOps) required do not necessarily mesh with the overall Military desires/requirements. You can't really mix and match "military overall" with "SpecOps" this way. You most certainly cannot align the general military wide sidearm criteria in totality with that of the SpecOps communities.

Glock lost out to the SIG Saur P320 through a pretty minor scoring issue, centered around the modularity scores. Had the Glock entry scored higher in that one category, relative to the other entries in the competition, it very likely could have come out on top over the P320. They did, in fact, "make it to the finals" in that competition.

By any measure, the Glock is a fine, even outstanding, sidearm. In the highly competitive firearms industry, for a company to come up with a competitive pistol design in the 1980s and become as successful as they have become in such a short time says a lot about their quality and reliability. You DON'T break into an established market, take it by storm essentially over night, and maintain that kind of performance history by making a POS firearm.

(They're still ugly as sin, though.)


SO...WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE?

At some point in the future, the military is going to once again re-evaluate the need for a new, general issue side arm. When this will happen will likely center around a couple things:

1. The current material status of the (then) existing stock of general issue sidearms (the P320).

2. The duration of the contract and the support provided by that contract for the existing general sidearm (P320).

When they reach that point, they will put out for bid entries for the next sidearm competition.

And you can bet Glock has already taken a good, hard look at how they were rated in this last competition and have already considered ways of improving their scores for a future competition.


REGARDLESS OF WHETHER GLOCK WINS THE NEXT COMPETITION...one thing will remain constant. There will be a huge deal made out of nothing much at all because in the end, the sidearm is the singular, most underpowered and undercapable firearm any servicemember will ever carry.

Not to say it's "useless"...just that too many people place too much credence/importance in the military sidearm. It's just a pistol.
 
I really like the credence a lot of people give to any particular handgun the military may buy and the endless hours of entertaining debate people have over them!

So true, even though it's arguably the most superfluous weapon in the modern military's arsenal (slightly ahead of the bayonet and a sharp stick)

I really like the credence a lot

Me too

 
We carried our M9's with a round chambered, hammer down, weapon on fire. This was command-wide SOP. Of course, on a FOB, the pogues would get upset sometimes when they saw the red dot showing, so we would just cover it up with a black paint marker, or tell them to mind their own business.

Funny enough, I carried mine the same way in 2010. Black marker on the dot and all. Although not many POGs to worry about. Our base commander allowed anyone who was comfortable to carry with a round chambered on any weapon capable of doing so ie not a 249 or 240. The likelihood of the base being overrun, not just attacked was high on his reasons to allow a more ready weapon posture. Our clearing barrels were mostly for show and visitors. We only had one ND on base that resulted in a round through through a barracks roof and an Article 15.

Wow. I don't see how Sig undercut Glock by that much money, especially considering all the cute little Transformer kits they designed for Small Statured Troopettes, etc.

Profit margins. I don't think Sig is making as much over production costs as Glock would have. Simple example Sig makes $1 profit with theirs over $5 profit with Glock. The trial 19X did have a thumb safety on it, and that is worth Glock charging the DOD plenty extra. Some gun companies see a government contract as a lucrative deal. But to companies with experience, they know lowest bidder will take all. In the long run, a sidearm is way down the list in terms of actual use. Wars are not going to be won on a 1911s or P320 shoulders. If I had to resort to my M9 in a serious event overseas (it was useful a handful of times), something had to have been seriously wrong. I carried my M9 on base because it was smaller and lighter than my M4 or M16 (had both issued). My M9 was to fight my way to my rifle, helmet, and plate carrier. And it was useful to grab inside a vehicle too.
 
The likelihood of the base being overrun, not just attacked was high on his reasons to allow a more ready weapon posture
Vey good reason to be as ready as possible for whatever the enemy may bring. My point is that your commander had to evaluate these factors, and make a command decision of readiness vs accident prevention in his decision to allow soldiers to chamber a round in an individual weapon being carried for force protection. That decision making process should not even be a thing for any commander of US forces anywhere- regardless of the type of unit, and especially in a war zone. Everyone in the military wears camo and is expected to be safe with a weapon. I have never been in law enforcement, but I would love to hear from anyone who is/was in the LE community, and if officers are expected to go on duty with an empty chamber in their sidearms, or anything but a ready weapon (I know that sometimes long guns are carried with an empty chamber in a patrol car, and I understand why).The fact that there are problems achieving this in the US military with an individual weapon being carried is unacceptable.
We only had one ND on base that resulted in a round through through a barracks roof and an Article 15.
Its good that there was "only" 1, and that no one was injured or killed, and no sensitive equipment damaged. I hope that the Soldier who did it (and everyone else) learned a valuable lesson. I think we can both agree that 1 is still too many. Unfortunately, it happens WAY too often, where the "big picture" is concerned. When these things happen, it makes a unit look less than stellar, and reflects on how the leadership and training of the members of that unit is viewed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top