Hunting successes with .357 Sig

mokin said:

What mcb said. It took me a lot of experimenting and a lot of time shooting over my chronograph to get the required 500 ft/pounds required in Colorado out of my 10mm. It was easier to reach with the lighter 155 - 165 grain bullets than with the 180 - 200 grain bullets. The 700 ft/pounds threshold looks interesting. I would like to see load data that would produce that.

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I have two 10mm Auto loads that get near the 700 ft-lbs. I started hunting with a 180gr XTP going 1300 fps giving 675 ft-lbs of energy. The load I have actually taken deer with is a 200 gr XTP going 1250 fps and that gets real close at 694 ft-lbs. Both loads are using above publish chargers of 800x. I am sure I could get both above 700 ft-lbs if I wanted but both loads shoot well in my handgun and have more than enough energy for what I am shooting. I don't have to meet any artificial energy requirements.

I have killed deer with as little as ~300 ft-lbs on target.

mcb said:

I have two 10mm Auto loads that get near the 700 ft-lbs. I started hunting with a 180gr XTP going 1300 fps giving 675 ft-lbs of energy. The load I have actually taken deer with is a 200 gr XTP going 1250 fps and that gets real close at 694 ft-lbs. Both loads are using above publish chargers of 800x. I am sure I could get both above 700 ft-lbs if I wanted but both loads shoot well in my handgun and have more than enough energy for what I am shooting. I don't have to meet any artificial energy requirements.

I have killed deer with as little as ~300 ft-lbs on target.

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The fact that those loads are above published charges doesn't surprise me at all. I have a load using 800X and a 180 gr XTP that I clocked at just under 1250 fps. It was near the maximum charge. I called it good enough. I haven't tried enough 200 gr loads to get nearly that high. I really don't think anything will notice the difference between being hit with 675 ft/lbs and 700.

mokin said:

The fact that those loads are above published charges doesn't surprise me at all. I have a load using 800X and a 180 gr XTP that I clocked at just under 1250 fps. It was near the maximum charge. I called it good enough. I haven't tried enough 200 gr loads to get nearly that high. I really don't think anything will notice the difference between being hit with 675 ft/lbs and 700.

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If you look at 800X data for 10mm Auto you will see that max loads are well under max pressure for the cartridge. For example Hodgdon publish 7.8 gr under a 200 gr jacketed bullet going 1130 fps but the pressure is only 32,500 psi and that is 5000 psi below SAAMI MAP for 10mm Auto. My assumption is that combination of bullet, cartridge and powder is volume limited not pressure limited and I think they are extra cautious because of how "fluffy" the big flakes of 800x is they don't want people compressing it and breaking those big flakes changing the effective burn rate. I have found that if you vibrate the cases a little before seating a bullet those big flakes settle very nicely and you can go a grain or so over Max publish loads without creating a compressed load. Since I was loading for a revolver I also seat .020 longer than standard OAL to gain a bit more use-able case volume. I suspect I am still not over SAAMI MAP but since 800x is not in QuickLoad I can't say with any certainty.

Obviously this is a try at you own risk. I did a lot of research on this load before trying it and worked up slow. It was worth the effort, it is a very nice shooting load that performed well on the deer.

Heir Kommt Die Sonne said:

Got any Longshot loads for 10mm?

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Not played with that one yet.

In my case...

Oklahoma has small deer. I hunt my own property and generally I harvest deer in the 125 pound range. And shots are short... 35-50 yards is the normal thing. You can't even see 100 yards through the brush so that's no temptation.

I love .357 SIG and it is my normal carry round. (HK P2000 LEM) I reload the cartridge but my carry load is what the Air Marshal's carry... Speer 125 grain Gold Dot. My Air Marshal (old Army buddy) talks to other AM's and some of them have used the cartridge for deer hunting. He said some had poor results... inconsistent expansion? No details.. not sure why that would be... it kills everything I shoot with it. So I decided to call MGM and order a custom T/C Contender barrel. I went 12 inches, stainless, cool spiral flutes, full bull. Since I was going to use it to shoot deer, I decided to try the Hornady 147 grain load. Burris scope. It shoots great on paper, puts one bullet on top of another at 50 meters.

But... I've only shot one deer with it this year and "something went wrong." I hate to believe it was me... but I guess it probably was. Decent buck walking right to left. Shot was fired at 50-60 yards. Held behind the front leg, midpoint vertically. Seemed like a clean shot at the break. He did the jump straight up in the air in a C shape thing. Hit the ground, took off running. Like they always do. Went about 40 yards to my left into heavy brush. Then I swear he sort of leaped sideways and fell on his side. I saw feet. I started making everything safe, and climbed down the ladder. Took extra equipment off myself, then started trudging out there. Couldn't find him. Went back to the stand and climbed up... marked in my mind exactly where I saw him go down. Went out there... nothing. Called my wife to come out and bring one of the Malinois. The dog hit on the exact spot where I saw the deer go down. The dog found two good splashes of blood there. But no deer. We searched in circles and around and around for literally hours upon hours. Never found the deer. I hate it... that never happens to me!

So I'm kind of on high center on the cartridge out of the longer Contender barrel. Obviously it gave great penetration and my expectation was that the higher velocity would make expansion even greater... so it should work fine. Maybe it was a fluke and I could shoot ten more and never see that again. Or maybe I should try the standard 125 grain load instead? I know I would get some violent penetration out of it coming out of a 12" barrel... but then I'll be wondering about penetration.

I love the cartridge and use that barrel for lots of small and medium varmints around the farm... but I sure would like to be able to use it for deer hunting from a stand. Very accurate, virtually no recoil out of that scoped barrel. I don't know...maybe it was strictly a shot placement error on my part.. .hard to make a conclusion based on one animal... but I also hate to shoot another one and have another less than clean kill! My .445 Super Mag Super 14 Contender barrel wouldn't do that! Or my .357 Herrett or even the .357 Maximum... but there's the whole issue... you move up to higher velocity and you just blow right through both sides of the ribcage of our small deer.... not sure that really improves "right there" killing power. Larger diameter, sure... bigger hole lets out more blood, lets in more air.

Just as a general observation, it is highly disingenuous to compare bows and arrows to firearms and bullets. Doesn’t matter if it is a 200 FPS longbow or 400+ FPS crossbow. The mode of action of an arrow through a target is different than a bullet. Especially so with cut on contact broad heads. Arrow weights have greater importance depending on arrow speed and toughness of target.

Arrows for the most part, just kill be hemorrhage.
Big cut, minimal shock.........vessels just pour.

The holes pretty big.

Don't quite work like boolits.

My Glock 31 with 4.5" barrel (4.49) ....with Hodgdons data using 800X ...

I can get 1325 fps with the Hornady 147 XTP.... the peak pressure is lower than the Same bullet with Longshot...

That velocity verified over two different chronograph ...

I have carried it while hunting and would not be afraid to shoot a deer at 40 yards ...

A 22lr will kill a deer. Might take days, weeks, months. But it will. Will 357 sig take a deer out? Yes if you do your part. Might have a long track. Might not. To me its just not worth it. Unless we are talking pure survival. Just because you can. Nah pass and take your 10mm loaded with good ammo. And enough practice to hit in appropriate place.

Deer aren't as hard to kill in the field as they are on the interwebs. If you put the bullet where it is supposed to go a 357 sig would do fine at 30 yards. I have killed large deer at longer distances with 40 SW and 45 ACP, that doesn't make any of them great choices as hunting rounds.

Wouldn't be my first choice but with the right load it would work, I think it was SIG's GM at the time the round came out had an article about taking a puma with it.

mcb said:

I have to say those energy levels seem a bit high for deer.
700 ft-lbs from a handgun makes it hard for 357 Mag and 10mm to make the cut. Both can exceed 700 ft-lbs but unless you are reloading or buying from Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and similar boutique loaders you probably are not getting 700 ft-lbs from factory 357 Mag or 10mm Auto ammo.

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True,

I think all that they did was to look at muzzle loading rifles, and figured that their minimum powder requirement of 60 grains and at least a .40 caliber rifle would likely give just over 700 ft.lbs. at the muzzle... so they used that crude yardstick to set handgun standards.

But that's from a 35" barrel or longer. A lot of the ML rifles back when these standards were established were 28" and 24" barrels, so I don't know how precise the person was who came up with the regulation, not to mention that the muzzle loading handgun is also allowed and it's going to be way under 700 ft.lbs. with it's 40 grains of powder.
I suspect it was a Friday afternoon, and somebody just did some typing after applying a little data to a hand calculator without a lot of thought or care....

Remington Ammo for example in 180 grain loading from an 8" handgun barrel, the company says gives below 600 ft.lbs.
Buffalo Bore
HSM
Swift
All make (made prior to COVID) loadings in 180 grain bullets that would meet the criteria of 700 ft.lbs. from a 6" barreled revolver

LD

HB said:

If a long bow works I’d bet 357 sig will.

If you can hit a beer can with it Id say thats your range.

Poke a hole in both lungs and hopefully one out the back for blood trail.

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Exactly. People tend to forget that most billets will have at least the penetration and energy of an arrow.

Heir Kommt Die Sonne said:

Let's hear some hunting stories with 357 Sig. I've heard it can take a deer down within 30 yards or so, but I want to know how viable an option it is? Or if it's better to stick to 10mm b

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Have a 5.3" 357 Sig Bbl. for the Glock G23.

Shoots factory HDY Custom 147 gr. XTP in excess of 1300 fps at the muzzle.

That's ~ 1100 fps/400 ft-lbs at 100 yards, or Point blank for a .40/.45 ACP, and penetrates better.

Do your part. . .




GR

I think it would work okay if you were careful but I cannot think of any situation where I would prefer any .357 sig load to a 200gr XTP in 10mm.

Whatever your choice I would personally not hunt with a bullet that I would not trust to work if I hit the thickest bone in the shoulder.

I've been hoping to hear someone's experience with .357 Sig using Lehigh Defense monolithic bullets like the Extreme Penetrator or Extreme Defender on large game.