308 vs 6.5

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I was at Walmart earlier and stopped by the gun counter to see if I could luck into a bulk box of 22lr. No luck. But I did see that they are selling 6.5 CM target ammo. A box of Federal Gold Medal Berger 130 grain was 27 bucks. That's not bad for some really good ammo available at Walmart.
 
Axis II said:
I can take it but don’t want my 5ft 4 girlfriend getting pounded by 308 if it’s that bad.
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I missed this on page 1. For what it’s worth, your girlfriend has a half inch on my wife , who owns and shoots heavy hitters like 30-06, 7rm, 338wm, and 45-70. I bought a Spanish Mauser which had been rebarreled with a Springfield dual groove chambered in 308win for my high school and college gf who was only 5’2”. My MIL is 67yrs old and 5’4”, and her only rifle is a .30-06. Recoil tolerance isn’t about physical size.

That said, there’s no reason to tolerate increased recoil which doesn’t yield improved performance downrange. The 308 can easily be managed by even the smallest of shooters, but it doesn’t do anything more at any range than 6.5 creed - except kick harder.
 
I have a 308 and they are good no doubt about it but they don’t have the case design/ 30 degree shoulder of the 6.5 cm that seems to promote higher pressure longer case life and less trimming, now not everyone agrees with those points but the higher wind drift of the 308 is just a fact.
I believe this same type of discussion over the 30-06 /308 came a few years ago when the 308 took over military work.
 
Axis II said:
Getting Ready to jump on the savage axis deal and wondering if a 308 is a good choice for shooting steel out to 7 to 800 yards? I heard that 308 has violent recoil and 6.5 is more tame so Shoykd I go that route.
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Hitting Steele consistently at 800 yards with an entry level hunting rifle will be a challenge , competing with a hunting rifle against the competition rifle will be a short lesson in defining your mission and selecting the appropriate tool.

I say go for it and have a great time...why not?
J
 
I have both. My 6.5 Savage weather warrior with the long Criterion barrel shoots a little better than the cheaper Savage Model 12 FV .308 with a 26" heavy barrel that you can get at Cabela's. You can get a 6.5 cm and a few other calibers, too, in that model. I like the accu-trigger and upgraded the plastic stock and bedded it. That made a huge difference for me. I hunt deer with the .308. Quicker kills but I haven't figured out a creedmoor hunting bullet I liked. I would not get rid of either rifle.
 
jmr40 said:
The 6.5 doesn't necessarily shoot flatter, but the much better aerodynamics of the bullets retain speed better. The trajectories are pretty close, at least to 800 yards. But once a bullet drops below the speed of sound it becomes unstable and accuracy falls off. Typical 308 loads are reaching that point at around 800 yards, the 6.5 doesn't reach that point until about 1 mile. Of course there are variables. Both can be stretched a bit farther with hot handloads and really long barrels.
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I think it would be more appropriate to say that 308 can make it out to 1,100-1,200 yards before going transonic. Your 6.5 Creedmoor mile claim albeit correct is a specific loading to achieve that, using the same loading perimeters on 308 and one is at 1,100-1,200 yards. Splitting hairs I know but I find myself saying, "the 308 is old yes relatively speaking, but lets not put it out to pasture too fast."


Varminterror said:
What is going to happen to an Axis which is shooting sub-MOA at 100yrds - but only for that it is an Axis - when it is shot at 800 yards? What, which won’t happen to any other rifle which is sub-MOA at 100yrds, when fired at 800, that is?
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Exactly, the change in MOA spread of shots between 100 yard groups and 800 yard groups are determined by environment, shooter and RPM stability. The bullet after it leaves the muzzle cares not what gun it was fired from, other than RPM stability.
 
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I have a Ruger boat paddle in .308, factory pad (which reportedly is about worthless).
Factory 150gr..........yeah, it has recoil. But it aint horrible.

Shooting my heavier Ruger #1 in .280 rem, 150gr factory ammo............it kicks worse.

Stock design is a biggie. So is recoil pad.
Old Ruger recoil pads do NOT help.

The old magnum Remington 700's, the BDLs w vented pads...........I found those to be pretty nice.
 
I do wonder, with the "newer" style softer pads, how much more compression they have and how many people are getting brow/nose bonked.
Lots of import scopes have iffy eye relief.
 
Speaking of recoil and the ladies: The Savage 11 Lady Hunter does an excellent job of managing the recoil for the ladies. The stock is build to fit them. My sister-in-law hunted with a Ruger Featherweight 257 Roberts for yeas and changed over to a Lady Hunter in 6.5 CM about 5 years ago. She reports lower felt recoil. When it came time to get their 14 year old granddaughter a rifle last year, she got a Lady Hunter in 6.5 CM...

The short video blurb is enlightening.

See https://savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=19655
 
I'm too old to be a hipster. Still, I gave up on .30 cals a while ago; I can do almost everything I want with less recoil shooting a 6.5 or 7 mm. Of the choice, I'd go 6.5 Creed all the way. In fact, if just ringing steel, I'd even consider the .243 Win (because they don't offer the 6 Creed). Here are some good reads for info and entertainment.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/6-5-creedmoor-vs-308-winchester/
https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/65-creedmoor-vs-308-winchester/

@Dr T, that is a good video, but did you notice that the rings are too high for that scope? I wouldn't want that much space between the objective bell and the barrel.
 
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Re Ladies Gun: I suspect that the rings may be used to fine tune the eye position and cheek weld. Ladies tend to have smaller faces and longer necks than men. Also, if the scope were much lower, it might be a bit uncomfortable to adjust the power of the scope. In any case, they look like medium rings to me.

I have had to do something similar with my Remington R-15 VTR and T/C Encore. And, I doubt that I would be able to shoot my little CZ with tangent sights nearly so well if it did not have a lot of drop at heel.

Sometimes these little things can make a world of difference.
 
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BreechFace said:
I think it would be more appropriate to say that 308 can make it out to 1,100-1,200 yards before going transonic. Your 6.5 Creedmoor mile claim albeit correct is a specific loading to achieve that, using the same loading perimeters on 308 and one is at 1,100-1,200 yards. Splitting hairs I know but
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BreechFace said:
I think it would be more appropriate to say that 308 can make it out to 1,100-1,200 yards before going transonic. Your 6.5 Creedmoor mile claim albeit correct is a specific loading to achieve that, using the same loading perimeters on 308 and one is at 1,100-1,200 yards. Splitting hairs I know but I find myself saying, "the 308 is old yes relatively speaking, but lets not put it out to pasture too fast."
.
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What 308 load goes transonic at 1100 yards?
 
.308 is about the only "high-powered" rifle cartridge I've owned and used. I never thought it to be violent although the jump it produces definately can take a toll on accuracy with some guns. I've been dying to get a 6.5 for awhile now, but more likely a 6.5 Swede. I've read nothing but wonderful stuff about it. It may not be normally sold at Wally World, but it's not super expensive online or most LGS's. I strongly considered 6.5 Creed too, as it seems to be everywhere, but lately Ithink I would prefer the long-action Swede for hunting, reloading...and also for the available rifles which I just usually like better. If you are considering Creed, go for it of you like that better.

I've been just about ready to trade my Ishapore Enfield in 308 for a scoped short Swedish Mauser as soon as I find one. I like old mil surplus that's been cleaned up and modernized, but an Enfield is just too heavy for comfortable all day hunting.
 
C-grunt said:
What 308 load goes transonic at 1100 yards?
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Hornady offers a .308 Win 168gr ELD-Match load that at 3,200 ft (where I live) and 50F is moving at 1,395 fps at 1,100 yards so still not transonic. Increase the temperature by 30F and the bullet remains supersonic at 1,200 yards. Bullet stability in the transonic range is greatly affected by length with shorter bullets typically being more stable. The 147gr ELD-Match is quite a bit longer than the 168gr ELD-Match so how these two examples compare in real world use at these longer ranges, and specifically in the transonic range is anyone's guess. As for the .308 Win at longer ranges, there are many F-Class FT-R shooters putting all 20 shots inside an moa 10 ring at 1,000 yards, some with at least half of those in the X ring.
 
MCMXI said:
Hornady offers a .308 Win 168gr ELD-Match load that at 3,200 ft (where I live) and 50F is moving at 1,395 fps at 1,100 yards so still not transonic. Increase the temperature by 30F and the bullet remains supersonic at 1,200 yards. Bullet stability in the transonic range is greatly affected by length with shorter bullets typically being more stable. The 147gr ELD-Match is quite a bit longer than the 168gr ELD-Match so how these two examples compare in real world use at these longer ranges, and specifically in the transonic range is anyone's guess. As for the .308 Win at longer ranges, there are many F-Class FT-R shooters putting all 20 shots inside an moa 10 ring at 1,000 yards, some with at least half of those in the X ring.
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The new 30 caliber "lighter weight" bullets are really giving the 308 some extra legs. My last 308, I have a 308 barrel for my AI but I havent shot it yet, went transonic around 950 yards and was definitely subsonic by 1100, That was a 178 AMAX at around 2650. I dont have that log anymore so I dont remember the exact numbers.

Earlier this year I went out shooting long range with some buddies and one of the rifles they had was a FN SPR 20 inch and he was shooting the 185 Bergers. Dont know when it went transonic but it just didnt seem to matter. He was scoring hits at over 1300 yards pretty easy as long as the wind wasnt blowing hard.
 
I've only shot my 308 out to 600 yards however my friend John shoots FTR actually quite accomplished as well, I'll ask him what bullet he shoots. Answer- B200-20x @2640 fps

There are many threads on accurate shooter discussing FTR load data, mainly Berger 185 gr
 
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I can't see what the 308 would offer over the 6.5 CM for your use. Though that doesn't make the 308 a bad cartridge.

The 6.5 CM has exploded in popularity not because it is as capable as every other cartridge on the market at every single thing. It exploded in popularity because it is capable enough to do what hordes of people actually do with their rifles, with a little less recoil. I'm sure lots of grandmas with COVID, on ventilators, bound by gravity to their deathbeds, and dictating their last will and testaments can all shoot a 338 Win Mag and not worry about the recoil. I would never argue against that point. But no one has ever pointed out to me how more recoil is a good thing and should be desired. If I could shoot a recoil free gun that met my needs, I would.
 
NWcityguy2 said:
But no one has ever pointed out to me how more recoil is a good thing and should be desired.
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Recoil isn't necessarily desired but it's a necessary part of putting X amount of energy on target. We all know that recoil is a function of bullet mass and velocity, ejecta mass and velocity and rifle sytem weight. Would you carry a 6.5 CM for dangerous game? If not, why not? If I'm somewhere where big bears are a problem I want lots of energy on target and there's no free lunch when it comes to that.

For me the 6.5 CM occupies a sort of no mans land. If my intention is to put holes in paper at 1,000 yards there are much better options than the 6.5 CM. If my intention is to hurt something at 1,000 yards there are much better options than the 6.5 CM. If I want to play with .264 cal bullets the 6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 PRC are far more interesting. If I'm hunting I will absolutely take a .308 Win over a 6.5 CM every time, mostly because I only hunt with solid copper bullets and 127gr is all she wrote for the Creedmoor.

It's an eye opener to shoot steel targets at 700 yards with a 6.5 CM, .308 Win, .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua Mag and .375 H&H. I have a .338 Lapua Mag that will stack 5 shots into just over an inch at 400 yards and knock the target over if it's not weighted down.
 
I must have missed where the OP was asking about dangerous game, hunting at 1000 yards, magnum cartridges, copper bullets, ft lbs on target, or basically anything else you brought up (if I forgot something).
 
@NWcityguy2, I was just extrapolating on your point ...

NWcityguy2 said:
The 6.5 CM has exploded in popularity not because it is as capable as every other cartridge on the market at every single thing.
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Your previous post was good and to the point, mine got off into the weeds a bit I agree, and in part because so many who buy a 6.5 CM don't shoot much at all. Even up here in MT where there are so many places to shoot, most don't do it with any sort of regularity. Perhaps it's the cost, or the time, or the level of interest but so many firearms owners don't seem to shoot more than a couple of times a year.

I have a 6.5 CM barrel on one of my Accuracy Internationals and it's a shooter but just not my favorite cartridge. I guess I'm still salty over the fact that the .308 Win seems to be in its death throws, mostly due to the 6.5 CM. I do think the copper bullet comment is germane to the discussion when deciding on 6.5 CM vs. .308 Win, assuming hunting is a possibility.
 
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@Nature Boy, do you see any F-Class Open shooters opting for the 6.5 CM? If not, what are the most popular choices?
 
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