Loading holy black 45 colt. Questions and recomendations

Bear gun ? How about a simple no.

Have you tried a wide flat meplat like a kaido conical bullet behind an energetic black powder such as old eynsford or 777? That should be a stout hard hitting load with plenty knock down power and large wound channel.

It can take a black bear easy. I know a guy who has shot quite a few black bear that had gotten into his home in northern montana...and only uses an 1860 army. Uses a custom flat meplat bullet that weighs 215 grains and also used the kaido conical too which i believe waa either 220 or 240 grains...backed by 3f swiss. You would be surprised what these guns can do with the right load. Hes an old "buckskinner"...does everything mountain man style and refuses to own or even shoot a cartridge gun. Shoots a .58 cal hawken type muzzleloader for game and a 55# selfbow long bow. To my knowledge two of bears he came across by accident ..one while getting fire wood from his shed and the other broke into his garbage bins when he was taking the6 trash. A third bear he had chased up a tree and shot him up there. Hes even killed a treed mountain lion with his 1860s. I remember he gave me some of his homemade whiskey..and not the smooth kind aged in oak barrels...to this day i turn green at the mere mention of being offered a shot of alcohol.

Slug your barrel. I predict .452 will be too small. You want a soft lead (BHN 8) bullet at 250 grs and almost certainly .454" . I would suggest the 45PRS Big Lube, available from Whyte Leatherworks already generously lubed with SPG lube and probably available elsewhere. If shooting T7, load so that the bullet seats in contact with the powder with little to no compression. With genuine BP, give it a little compression, say 1/10" - 1 /8" . I like a card wad (milk carton punch or Circle Fly) to protect the bullet base, but not strictly necessary. 250 grs at 850 -900 fps will certainly do for black bear. Good luck and enjoy.

A whole lot of folks disregard the 1860s and 1858s in 44 caliber...thinking they arent enough gun and very weak. But as mentioned above...once you see the damage on game that they do with just a pure soft lead round ball it will make you a firm believer in these guns. And if you use a heavier wide meplat bullet of pure lead...you will see even more impressive wound channels. There are even some devout black powder pistol hunters that hunt large wild hogs with it...thats where the Kaido bullets got their start i believe. If they can take a large wild hog then they should be able to take a black bear. NEVER underestimate a heavy pure soft lead bullet going 850-1100 fps. Its a tried and true recipe for hunting/defense

The OP mentioned 45 Colt and 1860 in the same sentence.
Could you `splain a little more what you are wanting to do?

(and with what?)


.

44 is a misnomer for black powder guns they are actually 45 calibers. I load a variety of hand cast bullets in 45C for conversion cylinders. 200RNFP, 250RNFP and 230 RN using not only 3F black but several smokeless powders. TrailBoss being the primary propellant these days. I’m assuming the Op is referring to conversion cylinders for his 1860 Army revolver unless it’s an 1860 something else. Personally I’d kick it up a notch and use smokeless powders instead of black. While the conversion cylinder manufacturers suggest only “cowboy” loads the cylinders and guns are capable of much hotter loads. Some assume the Colt open top is a weaker design than the 1858 Remington. I don’t know but a well respected bp smith in these pages suggests the Colt is actually stronger.
Also assuming “bear” is black bear. In Maine it’s said a deer gun is a bear gun, blackie don’t take no more killing than a good buck does. But then I’m not a hunter and if I were I’d stay with modern rifles.

A 45 Colt loaded up with a traditional 250gr bullet/full case of Black is every bit as deadly as any SAAMI rated smokeless load.
It will impress the heck out of the shooter the first trigger pull.
It ain't no "cowboy" load.
It's a handfull.

1. Full case (+) of Black.
2. Bullet has to have wide grease groove
3. Bullet need to be SOFT... pure lead isn't too soft
3. You need to use very soft BP lube...not more modern harder lubes

Expect to have to clean the face of the cylinder every loadout.

I load a 250 gr bullet lubed with 50/50 olive oil/beeswax. 30 gr of 3f goex black topped with .5-.7 cc of cream-o-wheat. This gives me a slightly compressed load. (Smells like bp smoke and baked cookies when fired)

Howdy

First of all, please refrain from using the term holy black. I first saw that term on the SASS Wire years ago, and I have always thought it was silly. Black Powder is just a very old form of propellant, there is nothing holy about it.

Second, I generally shoot my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges in cartridge revolvers. The only Cap & Ball revolvers I have with conversion cylinders are Remington 1858s with 45 Colt conversion cylinders. I generally shoot 45 Schofield ammunition in those revolvers because the grip shape of the Remington is different than the grip shape of a Colt Single Action Army or its replicas. The different shape of the grip on the Remington makes the recoil of a full house BP 45 Colt load uncomfortable.

Lastly, I am not a hunter, so I have no comment on what may or may not be acceptable ammunition for any particular animal.

OK, having said all that, I have been loading Black Powder in cartridges for about 20 years now. The cartridges I load with Black Powder are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40. I also load 45-70 with Black Powder for my Trapdoor Springfield and Sharps rifles.

45 Colt. I will pretty much echo what MEHavey said.

"1. Full case (+) of Black.
2. Bullet has to have wide grease groove
3. Bullet need to be SOFT... pure lead isn't too soft
3. You need to use very soft BP lube...not more modern harder lubes

Expect to have to clean the face of the cylinder every loadout."

The only thing I will disagree with is having to clean the cylinder frequently. Any revolver with a decent cylinder bushing standing proud of the cylinder face will not need the cylinder cleaned frequently if enough soft BP compatible bullet lube is used on the bullet. Since the 1860 C&B Colt has no bushing on the front of the cylinder, you may need to wipe off the front face of the cylinder more often than with a revolver that has a bushing on the front of the cylinder.

As can be seen in this photo, both the Colt 1860 Army cylinder on the left and the Remington 1858 cylinder on the right lack a bushing on the front face of the cylinder. This allows fouling expelled from the barrel/cylinder gap to be blasted directly onto the cylinder pin of the Remington or the cylinder arbor of the Colt. That is the main cause of binding when shooting Black Powder, fouling blasted onto the cylinder pin. The Colt (actually a Pietta) 1860 Army cylinder arbor has a helical groove cut along the arbor which creates clearance for fouling to accumulate. This and the slightly larger diameter of the Colt cylinder arbor makes the Colt slightly better at resisting the cylinder binding when shooting Black Powder. When I fire BP cartridges out of the Remington with its lack of a bushing and narrower pin, I truly have to wipe off the cylinder face after every cylinder full of ammo, or the cylinder will start to bind.






Left to right, these cylinders are from an Uberti Cattleman, a Ruger 'original model' Vaquero, and a 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army. The bushing on the front face of each cylinder shields the underlying cylinder pin from fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. With Black Powder ammunition using bullets with plenty of soft, BP compatible bullet lube, I can shoot these revolvers all day and not have to stop to wipe off the cylinders.






This is a photo of what goes into my Black Powder 45 Colt ammunition. I use standard Large Pistol primers in my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges. The bullet is the Big Lube 250 grain PRS bullet already referred to by another poster. I have stripped the lube out of the bullet on the left to illustrate how large the lube groove is. My usual load for 45 Colt is about 33.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg. However, you need to realize that different brands of Black Powder weigh different amounts. The best advice I can give you is the correct amount of powder in any Black Powder cartridge will be compressed by 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. 33.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg does that for me with the Big Lube PRS bullet. Slightly different grain weights of different brands of powder will do the same. The reason the 2.2CC Lee dipper is in the photo is because that dipper provides the correct volume of powder with that particular bullet in a 45 Colt case.






When using a dipper like this, pour about 1/2 pound of powder into a ceramic cup and use the dipper like an ice cream scoop. Scoop it through the powder with a consistent motion, and use a piece of card stock to scrape off the excess. Using this technique you will consistently dip the correct amount of powder for this bullet in a 45 Colt cartridge.






This photo shows a 45 Colt round on the left and a 44-40 round on the right. The Big Lube 250 grain PRS bullet is pictured with the 45 Colt round, the Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bullet is pictured with the 44-40 round. I have removed the lube from one of each bullet, demonstrating how much lube each bullet carries. This is the secret to keeping a Black Powder revolver functioning for a long time without binding, lots of soft BP compatible lube in the lube groove. The soft lube keeps the fouling soft, preventing it from binding the face of a revolver cylinder, and preventing hard fouling from building up in the bore which can destroy accuracy and is difficult to remove.






I used to cast my own bullets, but the lead content in my blood is too high now, so I buy all my Big Lube BP bullets from Whyte Leatherworks these days.

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

When I was casting my own bullets I was using SPG lube. Mark uses his own home made bullet lube which works just as well as SPG.

Any questions?

Mr.driftwood i like to consider myself a fair and respectful person when it comes to interactions on this forum..but i have to say...I dont use the term "holy black", but it doesnt bother me when others use it as it is a free country and freedom of speech is a right for all citizens and its not against forum rules to use that term. None of us , aside from site moderators and forum owner, can tell us not to use specific words or terms on this forum just because we think its "silly". Heck for all we know the users saying the term holy black might have gotten his powder blessed by a priest, we just dont know. Soldiers at times had their weapons blessed before going to war. Or they call it holy black because its the propellant used to make holes in paper? So to all who use the term holy black, i tip my hat to you and never let anyone infringe on your legal and god given right to use the words you want just because someone thinks its "silly".

I’m wondering if the huge lube grooves are necessary when shooting the dirtier powders. I shoot 3F Olde Eynsford and the bullets I created have small lube grooves and I shoot all day long without problems and clean up is quite easy. Nor do I see a degradation in accuracy (talking up to 10 cylinders from each revolver). Also shot a lot of T7, but it doesn’t foul like BP so I don’t consider it a fair example.

rodwha said:

I’m wondering if the huge lube grooves are necessary when shooting the dirtier powders. I shoot 3F Olde Eynsford and the bullets I created have small lube grooves and I shoot all day long without problems and clean up is quite easy. Nor do I see a degradation in accuracy (talking up to 10 cylinders from each revolver). Also shot a lot of T7, but it doesn’t foul like BP so I don’t consider it a fair example.

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Mr.rodwha i have to agree with you...again lol...the large lube grooves arent really required...they would benefit a long rifle barrel extremely well and i think they shine thete... but a short barrel on a revolver at or under 8 inches doesnt need much lube to keep fouling soft and the cylinder spinning. even with dirtier powders such as regular goex... I get by overly well with a thin lube disk that is about a 1/3rd the thickness of a felt wad...its actually as thick as a cereal box cardboard over powder card. This thin lube disk keeps fouling soft and my cylinder spinning freely. I even designed a wide deep grooved REAL type bullet for my .36 colts and it used so much lube that it was really unecessary and now wish i had made the grooves shallower and given the bullet more lead grain weight instead. Although the huge lube grooved bullets have their place to shine in a long barrel and will work on a revolver...the design is a bit extreme for carrying so much lube for such a short barrel. I had tried them big lube bullets and saw no benefit over using a thin lube disk when compared side by side or even a bullet design with larger than average lube grooves....and id rather use the limited space for lead and powder rather than lube ill never utilize and just gets wasted (im frugal and hate wasting powder, lead, lube, etc). Actually i think your 195 grain bullet lube groove design is just about all you'd ever need to properly lube a barrel and cylinder pin.

TheOutlawKid said:

Mr.rodwha i have to agree with you...again lol...the large lube grooves arent really required...they would benefit a long rifle barrel extremely well and i think they shine thete... but a short barrel on a revolver at or under 8 inches doesnt need much lube to keep fouling soft and the cylinder spinning. even with dirtier powders such as regular goex... I get by overly well with a thin lube disk that is about a 1/3rd the thickness of a felt wad...its actually as thick as a cereal box cardboard over powder card. This thin lube disk keeps fouling soft and my cylinder spinning freely. I even designed a wide deep grooved REAL type bullet for my .36 colts and it used so much lube that it was really unecessary and now wish i had made the grooves shallower and given the bullet more lead grain weight instead. Although the huge lube grooved bullets have their place to shine in a long barrel and will work on a revolver...the design is a bit extreme for carrying so much lube for such a short barrel. I had tried them big lube bullets and saw no benefit over using a thin lube disk when compared side by side or even a bullet design with larger than average lube grooves....and id rather use the limited space for lead and powder rather than lube ill never utilize and just gets wasted (im frugal and hate wasting powder, lead, lube, etc). Actually i think your 195 grain bullet lube groove design is just about all you'd ever need to properly lube a barrel and cylinder pin.

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I don't know. I tend to agree with Rudyard Kipling: "A man van never have too may books, too much red wine, too much ammunition, or too much lube..."

DocRock said:

I don't know. I tend to agree with Rudyard Kipling: "A man van never have too may books, too much red wine, too much ammunition, or too much lube..."

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Haha Too much is good...but thats if you got the space. It all comes down to preference as well..... I prefer to use as much of the limited space with lead and powder. Sometimes, depending on lube type, it can make a mess of the gun. Like folks who use tons of pure crisco and get it everywhere that the gun can slip out of your hand... just a tiny smear on one chamber works perfectly and is all that would have been needed. Im not a fan of crisco or crisco and wax mixes...but to my knowledge and experience a little bit of this lube or lube mixes goes a long way. Such as Emmerts lube...a thin disk or regular lube groove of Emmerts will really keep your fouling soft...but some lubes require almost twice as much to get the same performance.

Bear vs flintlock

I use the Big Lube designs for Holy Black in the Colt. (They also work well with smokeless.) I use 1-40 tin lead for a very soft bullet, and I lube with SPG. I size to cylinder throats, preferring bullets .0005 to .001 larger than the throats.

I load with Olde Eynsford FFFg. I use a Lyman BP measure with a 24" drop tube. I don't weigh the loads, but throw a charge which gets slightly compressed when the bullet is seated. I sometimes use a card wad between powder and bullet, but the gun I use primarily with BP does not care either way, so I tend to skip the extra step. I use Federal magnum primers almost exclusively for BP loads in the Colt.

.38 Special said:

I use the Big Lube designs for Holy Black in the Colt. (They also work well with smokeless.) I use 1-40 tin lead for a very soft bullet, and I lube with SPG. I size to cylinder throats, preferring bullets .0005 to .001 larger than the throats.

I load with Olde Eynsford FFFg. I use a Lyman BP measure with a 24" drop tube. I don't weigh the loads, but throw a charge which gets slightly compressed when the bullet is seated. I sometimes use a card wad between powder and bullet, but the gun I use primarily with BP does not care either way, so I tend to skip the extra step. I use Federal magnum primers almost exclusively for BP loads in the Colt.

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Sounds like a very good and simple load that others, especially new shooters, can use. Care to share what you think the volume of powder youre using? Im sure others would like to maybe try the same but are a bit intimidated with "eyeballing" a load measurment. Good stuff and thanks for sharing.