Practice Distances for Concealed Carry Pistol

Status
Not open for further replies.

DMW1116

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,119
I just got my CCW and have had a S&W Shield for a while for carry. Particularly when I was testing different loads for accuracy I would shoot it out to 25 yards. My question comes from advice I've heard from various people. They generally advise against shooting a defensive carry pistol further than 10 yards or so. They say shooting an assailant further will get you into trouble. I think if I can hit at 25, then closer should be easier and there is no reason to limit practice distances. The regulations and class lectures didn't have any sort of distance limit. I also think this advice comes from an assumption that one isn't dealing with an assailant armed with a firearm. Shouldn't one try to hit from as far as they can when practicing?
 
I focus my practice at 6-7 yards and consistently hitting a 6 inch circle, quickly, repeatedly, like 1/3 second between shots.
I can hit the 6 inch circle further, 20 yards, but I have to shoot slower, which is target practice.
Get accurate first, then get accurate quicker.
 
I think if I can hit at 25, then closer should be easier and there is no reason to limit practice distances. Shouldn't one try to hit from as far as they can when practicing?
You are correct. Practicing at 25+ yards with a handgun will make proper technique a habit. Practicing only at 7-10 yards will allow you to get sloppy and develop bad habits. Range amplifies error. I practice at 30 to 100 yards about 95% of the time.
 
"Most" of these encounters happen close and are very fast and furious affairs. Except when they don't. The process that makes the most sense to me regarding distance is to start at the closer distances, and as you master the engagement drills at a given distance, work your way out further in the same drills. I think 25 yards is a reasonable goal. The most important thing is to SAFELY use proper techniques in every drill, and make sure the drills are realistic. My drills involve firing with and without cover, laying on my back or side, from inside of a vehicle, with weak hand only, and so on. Distances range from contact to 25 yards. For contact, I use my M&P 22 so that I don't reduce my target to confetti with the first shot. Regarding speed, that will come with practice- better to do it right at a slower pace than wrong in a hurry- you can't miss fast enough. Each shooting "problem" or scenario will have its own solution. A pro-timer is a good investment, is brutally honest, and will give the best feedback as to your incremental improvements. I have heard that there are phone apps for pro timers too.
 
I just got my CCW and have had a S&W Shield for a while for carry. Particularly when I was testing different loads for accuracy I would shoot it out to 25 yards. My question comes from advice I've heard from various people. They generally advise against shooting a defensive carry pistol further than 10 yards or so. They say shooting an assailant further will get you into trouble. I think if I can hit at 25, then closer should be easier and there is no reason to limit practice distances. The regulations and class lectures didn't have any sort of distance limit. I also think this advice comes from an assumption that one isn't dealing with an assailant armed with a firearm. Shouldn't one try to hit from as far as they can when practicing?
IMO, the shield is an excellent choice. I love mine. Who are these "people", and where does this 10 yard limit come from? Why not 11? Why not 9? If I had an impact or melee weapon of some type in my hand at 11 yards and I really wanted to hurt you, you better do something pretty quick- and you probably should have done it earlier, if possible. Generally speaking, assumptions will often get you in trouble.
 
I think if I can hit at 25, then closer should be easier and there is no reason to limit practice distances.
You probably shoot do some work at 25. The need may arise.

However, though it may sound counterintuitive, practicing only at longer distances may not prepare you for an explosive occurrence at close range.

In one training class I attended, most of the drills were conducted at around 12 feet.
 
If you have a crystal ball and can predict what situations you might face then you could practice for them.
My crystal ball is pretty cloudy so I try to practice for multiple situations/distances.
This might seem to be a vague answer but I can't predict what type of threat might unfold. So practice is varied
 
They generally advise against shooting a defensive carry pistol further than 10 yards or so. They say shooting an assailant further will get you into trouble.
I don't see it that way at all, but there is a filament of logic to that.

Realistically, one will likely not be faced with a situation in which a threat of deadly force is imminent unless the apparent threat is close.

Let's define "close" here as seven yards. The idea is that if a threat with an impact weapon starts moving from seven yards out, ir would take the time that a fit person can close that distance for a defender to draw and fire one shot.

Obviously , the distance will be mush less than seven yards. Think arms' length, and think movement.

The idea that shooting further will get you into trouble probably comes form an assumption that at such distance, an attacker with a contact weapon would not have the ability or the opportunity to harm the defender.

But at our seven yards, he would be able to gain that opportunity and ability, should he so intend, before the defender could draw and fire.

The defender would have to draw very fast and fire quickly, probably firing several shots rapidly.

If you cannot draw and fire at your range, practice drawing at home with an empty gun. Don't draw on something directly in front of you. Turn to identify it, and draw while moving off line. Try for less than two seconds from concealment.

At the range, forget group size. What will likely be faced with is the need to but three to five shots into the area of a small pie plate five to ten feet away at mot, in, say, one to two seconds, not including the draw time.

I hope this helps.
 
My question comes from advice I've heard from various people. They generally advise against shooting a defensive carry pistol further than 10 yards or so. They say shooting an assailant further will get you into trouble.
You should ask them to show you some examples where the distance made the difference between "getting in trouble"or not.
 
You should ask them to show you some examples where the distance made the difference between "getting in trouble"or not.
No one could really know of any without having been on a jury in which that came up during deliberations..

But the issue of proximity in lawful defense is embodies in established law.
 
Then whoever is telling him this should be able to point to some court cases as examples, no?
Why?

A trainer's material on any subject may be fact-based, but we do not require the trainers to cite examples.

On this subject, one would likely be dragged into the weeds, raising more questions than are answered.

One wouldn't want a CCW instructor to try. Andrew Branca could do it, but he would first have to explain quite a bit about self defense law.

A CCW instructor should limit himself to discussing the Tueller Drill.

We've even seen expert witnesses screw that up.
 
They generally advise against shooting a defensive carry pistol further than 10 yards or so. They say shooting an assailant further will get you into trouble.
It is not completely irrational to expect that it's going to be harder to articulate a threat and the need to employ deadly force if the target isn't immediate. As with most things, it's a generalization that can be proven false, but which has a kernel of truth within it. The key notion isn't the distance, per se - it's the need to be able to articulate the threat and the reasons why deadly force needed to be employed to stop the threat.

And most threats present themselves as threats inside of 15 yards, and not further, if the videos of violent encounters are to be believed.

However, though it may sound counterintuitive, practicing only at longer distances may not prepare you for an explosive occurrence at close range.
I am not a trainer, and I've no practical experience on a two way range - but this has always been my concern. For that reason, I generally advise new shooters:
"Most" of these encounters happen close and are very fast and furious affairs. Except when they don't. The process that makes the most sense to me regarding distance is to start at the closer distances, and as you master the engagement drills at a given distance, work your way out further in the same drills. I think 25 yards is a reasonable goal. The most important thing is to SAFELY use proper techniques in every drill, and make sure the drills are realistic. My drills involve firing with and without cover, laying on my back or side, from inside of a vehicle, with weak hand only, and so on. Distances range from contact to 25 yards. For contact, I use my M&P 22 so that I don't reduce my target to confetti with the first shot. Regarding speed, that will come with practice- better to do it right at a slower pace than wrong in a hurry- you can't miss fast enough. Each shooting "problem" or scenario will have its own solution. A pro-timer is a good investment, is brutally honest, and will give the best feedback as to your incremental improvements. I have heard that there are phone apps for pro timers too.
Making small groups at distance is great and demonstrates good technique, but it's probably not very practical for self defense. I'm more likely to need to shoot from cover or shoot one-handed at an assailant inside of 10 yards than I am to need to take a headshot at 25 yards.

Most square ranges won't have provision to practice shooting while seated or shooting from a vehicle, but shooting one handed, both strong and weak handed, and using the lane separators as notional cover (where reasonable - ya gotta stay up on the line, and be mindful of the folk around you) to ingrain the notion of finding cover can certainly be practiced most everywhere.
 
Last edited:
When Illinois finally adopted a state qualification standard for peace officers in the early 2000s (prior to that every agency was free to adopt their own standard and agencies still have that option as long as their standard is higher then the state standard) they made shooting from 25 yards optional. I was told at the time that the 25 yard portion was optional so the state wasn't responsible for officers losing their job for not being able to meet the minimum standard and it had nothing to do with the 25 yard portion no longer being considered tactically relevant. As for practicing at 25 yards hurting you in court, I put that in the same category as the advice they used to give police officers about not shooting well on qualification because an attorney can use your score against you in court if he thinks your shooting wasn't perfect.......gunfight urban legend.

That said, no one has the resources to train for every possible contingency. Everyone has to train for the most likely scenario they will face. There is a lot you can learn from shooting at 25 yards and even longer distances, so don't completely discard it. 25 yards is not as long distance as people think it is. If you factor in the 10 yards between 15 and 25 yards, you have 10 yards that you haven't trained to engage at. Might not be too critical at 16 yards but might be noticeable at 18 or 20 yards.
 
I like what Jeff White said about the difference between 15 and 25 yards. In thinking about it, that's probably where I do most of my practice. I do occasionally practice drills closer, including contact distance, and I started out much closer. Part of the reason is that many drills involve a little running back and forth to get the heart rate and breathing up.
 
3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 25, 50 and 100 yards. 25 is for practical defensive work as distances are farther than you think. Go to the mall or grocery store and guess the distances. 15 and 25 are shots you may have to take. 50 and 100 are for confidence and demonstrating control. Vic Stacey shot a bad guy at ~65 yards, saving a police officer from getting shot with a rifle.

Oddly, my SIG P220 was very very easy to shoot at 100 yards on an 8" wide by 10" tall steel plate. Six of eight hits isn't a problem; it's that last two that was tough. I have a much harder time with my Glocks at that distance, though my Glock 43 was amazingly accurate at 50 yards.
 
Shoot as far as you can get good hits; whatever that number is, for you, on a consistently sized target. Take the time to figure out what is that distance, it's worth the effort. Work from there.

Shooting close, and shooting far, is not the same skill set. Work on both, get training.
 
Last edited:
On this subject, one would likely be dragged into the weeds, raising more questions than are answered.
That would be the point of the question. It would "encourage" the "advisors" that the OP is talking about to back up what they're saying with facts, rather than pure conjecture based primarily, I strongly suspect, on something they read on an internet forum. It might cause them to reconsider the ridiculous notion that one should not practice with their carry pistol at distances further than 10 yards.
 
Shoot as far as you can get good hits. Whatever that number is for you. Inside of that is easier.
That's true for deliberate planned target shooting, but for reacting instantly to an unexpected violent attack, the mindset, the moves, and the speed need for close-quarter defense are are not best developed by practicing farther out.

As for practicing at 25 yards hurting you in court,
Nope.

I thought the question was about actually shooting an assailant farther out.

There's nothing that says that would be unlawful--it's just that the surrounding circumstance that led to doing so could weaken the argument that shooing in self defense had been necessary. .
 
3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 25, 50 and 100 yards. 25 is for practical defensive work as distances are farther than you think. Go to the mall or grocery store and guess the distances. 15 and 25 are shots you may have to take. 50 and 100 are for confidence and demonstrating control. Vic Stacey shot a bad guy at ~65 yards, saving a police officer from getting shot with a rifle.

Oddly, my SIG P220 was very very easy to shoot at 100 yards on an 8" wide by 10" tall steel plate. Six of eight hits isn't a problem; it's that last two that was tough. I have a much harder time with my Glocks at that distance, though my Glock 43 was amazingly accurate at 50 yards.

For you younger guys who don't know who Vic Stacey is/was, is he still alive?: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/one-year-later-vic-stacy-and-the-peach-house-shootout/
 
That's true for deliberate planned target shooting, but for reacting instantly to an unexpected violent attack, the mindset, the moves, and the speed need for close-quarter defense are are not best developed by practicing farther out.

"Shooting close, and shooting far, is not the same skill set. Work on both, get training." See above. Inside competency distance is easier, figure out what that is and work on both.
 
It would "encourage" the "advisors" that the OP is talking about to back up what they're saying with facts, rather than pure conjecture based primarily, I strongly suspect, on something they read on an internet forum.
It may be part of their approved curriculum--and there is a basis for saying that using deadly force against a person armed with a contact weapon who is too far away would put one in a cage for some years.

When I see people shooting slowly at a target seven yards away, I remember doing that myself, and I am reminded that while some longer range practice is okay, one would be wiser to prioritize rapid fire at a much closer distance.
 
"Shooting close, and shooting far, is not the same skill set. Work on both, get training." See above. Inside competency distance is easier, figure out what that is and work on both.
Bingo!
 
Aside from all the very good points raised on averages only being averages, and extending range being a good way to expose marksmanship deficits you can then work on, there's another good reason to stretch distance:

Confidence.

People who shoot only 0-10 yards think 10 yards is a long ways away, and 25 is impossible. You show them how to get hits at (say) 100 yards with a handgun, and they will know they can hit it, so can more comfortably take that needed shot at 10 or 25. And, they know how hard it is to do the long range, so won't just pray and hope but try to pull in all their techniques and try when it's really needed.


Me? When doing full on training for myself with the handgun — yes, even the subcompact — I:
  • Start at 3-5 yds. Move range in and out a bit, move left and right a bit, to make sure I am picking up sights and not doing muscle memory repetitions on the target index. Make sure I am doing good draw stroke, getting good hits there, etc.
  • Turns and so on
  • Multiple targets and/or non-standard responses
  • Closer range. Contact distance, back up to draw and fire
  • And finish off with backing up. Go back to 7 yards or so, then every draw (usually mixing some of the above, like multiple targets, turns, NSRs...) I take two good steps back. Ideally, I run out of range before I am missing. Sometimes 25 yds, sometimes 75 or more.
I am cheap and ammo is horribly expensive, so this is NOT a lot of rounds as a refresher. Under 50 for sure. Don't do more than about 50 without someone watching you to correct.

Always remembering only perfect practice makes perfect. If you feel you are doing badly and can't fix it quickly, I'll stop, and go back home to get the fundamentals with dryfire, SIRT, airsoft, etc or just take a rest and get food or drink in me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top