.38Spl 148 DEWC accuracy troubleshooting

Are they sized .357" or .358"?

Personally I’d try increasing the powder charge a bit.

edwardware said:

All Y'all,

I have a box of MBC's .358, 148gr DEWC, grease lubed, "For PPC Velocity", Brinnell 10 bullets, and I can not find a load worth the bother. I'm using iso-headstamp REM-UMC WC brass (thin wall so it's not sizing the bullets down), MDie to expand and flare, seated to the last groove, just enough crimp to unflare, and no post-sizing.

Same brass/powder/revolver with Berry's 158gr plated shows nice 1.5" ragged hole groups. Revolvers have all had the throats honed to .3585, and my typical full-power 158gr cast loads make 2" groups.

I've tried what I understand to be PPC-power (and they are soft):
- 700x, 2.4-2.8gr
- HP38, 3gr
In my M10 and M19, groups are 4"+ at 20 yards. There's no leading whatsoever.

What am I doing wrong with these DEWC? Do they need a crimp? Am I loading them backwards?

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Are you sure ppc isn't supposed to be pcc (pistol caliber carbine?) Bhn 10 would indicate closer to 1000 fps? Any reason not to try a powder with a lil more scoot? Did you try any higher charges?

I used to shoot "Police Pistol Combat" PPC. It is fired mostly with rebuilt .38 Special revolvers with 6" bull barrels, much smoothing of the action and .38 Special wadcutters. (One guy used a S&W M52 with modified magazines.)

PPC velocity is pretty low. The California PPC Club (not affiliated with the state government) passed a rule that bullets had to penetrate the cardboard backing at the 50 yard line to give you an idea of the average velocity. Rather light. See your manual; the lowest load that will leave the barrel or operate the action, depending.

edwardware said:

All Y'all,

I have a box of MBC's .358, 148gr DEWC, grease lubed, "For PPC Velocity", Brinnell 10 bullets, and I can not find a load worth the bother.

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The MBC’s I use are Brinnell 12, DEWC 148gr Hi-Tek coated, diameter .3585” average. I use CFE Pistol or Tightgroup and load for 925 fps in 3”, 950 fps in 4” and 1000 fps in 6”. I load them to 1.250” OAL in 38 Special brass, roll crimp.

I believe your powder charges would be fine for hollow base wad cutters. I’ve found these DEWC need to go faster.

I’d try bullseye powder and maybe up the charge a bit!

I have never had any real success with DEWCs. They just aren't as accurate as swaged HBWCs; however, HBWCs can not be loaded over 800 fps (and work best at 625-725 fps).
If the bullets are cast, only the bottom lube groove should have lube and the bullet should be seated to the crimp groove for revolvers, with a mild/medium roll crimp (get a Redding Profile Crimp die for all roll crimp applications). Otherwise, seat just below flush with the case mouth and use a slight roll crimp.
When you pull a bullet, the diameter needs to be the same as going in and there should be no crimp ring mark on the bullet. Don't assume it is, verify.
You may find you need a larger expander or more case mouth flare.
Best powders are usually Red Dot, AA2, Bullseye, or 231/HP38.

► The MBC DEWC can be seated several ways. There is a crimp cannelure that leaves the bullet exposed about 1/10th inch, or you can seat them flush. Some issues arise with flush seating in that not all brass will accept deeply seated bullets. Also, some Seating dies have issues with physically seating that deep. But for all the issues, I prefer flush seating with a light roll crimp because the amount of powder is always very, very small.



► Small powder charges in a large case can lead to "position sensitivity". That is, the shot is affected by how the powder charge is dispersed inside the case. First thing to test is: Does the velocity or accuracy vary between pointing the gun down before every shot versus pointing the gun up before every shot. If the answer is 'Yes', then you need to seat to the flush position to help occupy more space inside the case.



► You should get respectable results with W231, but that may be the slowest viable powder. Both my 6" guns prefer faster powders, such as Accurate No.2 .

Bump your charge and lightly crimp over the edge. I like Promo loads. They need to be a bit stiffer than you are making them. I assume if you have reamed the cylinders you have also slugged the bore and matched it. If not check bullet to bore fit.

Sounds like a lube issue. The alloy is borderline too hard for your load/pressure of your load. Lube acts like a gasket sealing the bore along with coating it to prevent leading/fouling.

jacketed bullets ='s sealing of the bore via full diameter copper/metal jacket
plated bullets & pc'd bullets ='s sealing of the bore via full diameter coating
lead bullet ='s the pressure of the bullet presses on the base of the bullet compressing it. This forces the lube outward (gasket seal) along with forward sealing the front drive bands/body of the bullet. Small fishers of hot gas get by the bottom drive band (bullet base) pressurizing the lube groove causing "hydraulic" pressure to push the lube outward and forward.

A good consistent seal ='s accuracy. Jacketed/plated/coated bullets are more forgiving simply because they already have their lube/coating sealing metal/film already in place. I'm not saying 1 bullet skin/metal/coating is more accurate then the other. I will say it's easier to find accurate loads with the jacketed/plated/coated bullets compared to the traditionally cast/lubed/sized bullets.

Several years ago I did head to head testing with 7 bullets and 5 different powders. All the bullets were cast at the same time, same molds, same alloys. 1/2 the bullets got traditionally lubed/sized & the other 1/2 got pc'd and sized in the same sizing die. I did ladder tests with the 5 powders looking for loads that would do 1 1/2" or less 6-shot groups @ 25yds using a beater 629 as a test bed. At the end of the test the pc'd bullets easily out performed the traditionally lubed bullets.
13 VS 3
The pc'd bullets produced 13 different loads that would do 6-shot groups that were 1 1/2" or less @ 25yds. The traditionally lubed bullets did 3 loads.


Playing around with a 308w @ 100yds. When I started getting to 2550fps+ the bullets accuracy fell of real fast. That 37gr load looked like a shotgun pattern instead of a group. There was no leading in the bbl.


I retested those 36gr & 37gr loads with the same bullets. This time I put a 45/45/10 tumble lube on them. Huge difference in accuracy without much if any gain in velocity.


A close-up of that 37gr load. The extra lube made the load more consistent.


You might try tumble lubing some of those bullet or giving them coat by hand of johnson's paste wax and re-testing.

I typically use a 8/9bhn alloy and either a soft lube, tumble lube or pc'd bullets in my ppc revolver with 2 different loads using cast 148gr hbwc's.
3.0gr of am select for a 800fps general plinking load
2.2gr of clays for a 700fps load for ccuracy/speed

@FROGO207 very interesting!

I find DEWCs like a little bit more crimp than a round-nose or HBWC. LRN are up against the throat and HBWC expand the skirts to fill the throat and case neck on firing. DEWC's just need more crimp to give the powder time to build pressure. Then again, I also prefer a 3.5 grain load of Unique in my revolvers with 6" barrels and 2.8 grains of Bullseye for 4" or shorter barrels and a solid roll crimp in a Lee FCD. Both loads get out at around 750fps, depending on the gun. You didn't say how long the barrels of your revolvers are.

GeoDude beat me to it. I generally don't like DEWCs and find that they rarely perform as well as HBWCs, and I also have found that a noticeable roll crimp really helps with them. Between the thin-wall brass and the lack of crimp, I suspect the OP's loads simply aren't holding the bullet firmly enough.

I'd try bumping up the charge with HP38. DEWCs need a little more oomph than the hollow base stuff. On the plus side, sometimes you can put together full charge loads that move and are very accurate.

I use the MBC 148 gr coated DEWC and use 4.0 gr. of HP-38 (which should be about the same as 231). Accuracy seems good for me. I load mine like the right hand bullet in the picture "rfwobbly" posted.

rfwobbly said:

► The MBC DEWC can be seated several ways. There is a crimp cannelure that leaves the bullet exposed about 1/10th inch, or you can seat them flush. Some issues arise with flush seating in that not all brass will accept deeply seated bullets. Also, some Seating dies have issues with physically seating that deep. But for all the issues, I prefer flush seating with a light roll crimp because the amount of powder is always very, very small.

View attachment 964447

► Small powder charges in a large case can lead to "position sensitivity". That is, the shot is affected by how the powder charge is dispersed inside the case. First thing to test is: Does the velocity or accuracy vary between pointing the gun down before every shot versus pointing the gun up before every shot. If the answer is 'Yes', then you need to seat to the flush position to help occupy more space inside the case.

View attachment 964452

► You should get respectable results with W231, but that may be the slowest viable powder. Both my 6" guns prefer faster powders, such as Accurate No.2 .

View attachment 964448

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great groups for both but isn' the w231 load the better load based on the pics?

Steve51 said:

I use the MBC 148 gr coated DEWC and use 4.0 gr. of HP-38 (which should be about the same as 231). Accuracy seems good for me. I load mine like the right hand bullet in the picture "rfwobbly" posted.

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Agreed, but your suggested load 4.0gr of W231 is going to result in much better "case fill". Choice of crimp position is totally determined by "case fill", because without it we're faced with inefficient powder ignition. And, whether we're looking for ultimate accuracy or self defense loads, they all start with efficient detonation.

Maybe this scale model demonstrates what I'm talking about.

@rfwobbly dang! that's some fancy stuff! I use MS paint for my illustrations

1KPerDay said:

@rfwobbly dang! that's some fancy stuff! I use MS paint for my illustrations

View attachment 964708

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Now it makes sense!

I like DEWC from MBC, as was shown I also seat it with a touch of the bullet peeking out and roll crimp it in place.

I use anywhere from 2.7 to 3.0 gr Bullseye powder for very light loads and 3.5 -4.0 gr Unique for mid range trainers.

I have found them to be very accurate in snubs as well as longer barreled target guns whether they are the MBC / Brazos (button nose) coated, plain lead or Berrys / Extreme plated versions.

10 yards DA with the Cobra, 20 yds SA with the Officers model:


Stay safe.

Any fast burning pistol powder will give you very good results with DEWC's. If I were you I'd bump the charge up 5 tenths of a grain. That should make a big difference.

3.5gr W231 Big time accurate in every revolver I have shot it in. I will say the same load was used in a semi auto S&W model 52 and I had to bump the charge up a bit to get 100% reliability.