proper pan fitting for a flintlock

I use 4F powder in the pan. I also load 15 grains of 4F in first before loading the main charge.

This has been my flintlock routine for decades. Never had a "hang time" shot doing it this way.

4F powder can be hard to find, but I consider it vital for flintlocks. It works for me.

Try grinding some of your powder finer to use in the pan. Use a hard wood dowel on a flat piece of wood.
From the photo it looks like your vent is kind of low compared to the pan, try leaving some space between the pan powder and the flash hole.
If the pan powder covers the flash hole it causes a "fuse" effect and slow ignition.
The pan powder is supposed to Flash through the flash hole not burn through.
Also make sure your flint is sharp so that it throws a good shower of sparks. The flint should be able to shave a small curl of finger nail if you drag your finger nail across the edge at a 90 degree angle.
Use a cloth and wipe the fouling from the frizzen, flint and pan every shot, that may improve reliability.

SC45-70

There are quite a few details to pay attention to, with flintlocks, but I assure you they are 100% reliable. If. If the are cleaned properly, the flint is sharp and positioned just right, the frizzen is hard, the flash hole is positioned correctly, and more.

It does look like your flash hole is very low in the pan. That can be fixed by making your pan deeper. However, that should only cause hang fires and not miss-fires. It looks like your pan and lock are not tight up against the barrel. That should be corrected. Sometimes priming powder will accumulate in the lock, which than can ignite, blowing your lock off. Don't want that.

If the frizzen gets dirty, it should be wiped with a clean cloth. Giving it the finger (!!!!!) can/will just make it worse. The first time you load the gun, it should be totally dry and clean, no oil in the breech, and the frizzen should be wiped off with a clean cloth with some alcohol on it. Just some rubbing, or denatured alocohol, not your best Scotch.

As long as everything else is working right, the grain size of the powder should not cause any miss-fires, or make "much" difference in ignition time. 1fg could possible cause a noticeable slight delay in ignition, compared to a finer grain. But miss-fires, no. I've lately moved from 4fg to 3fg for priming both my flintlocks.

I get better, faster ignition when I load some 1fg first, then the remainder of the load 2fg. Or just 2fg. (.62cal) in another gun, it could be just the opposite. But the only difference should be ignition time, not whether it fires or not.

Homemade powder could be "suspect". Or, a suspect. I'd learn to load and shoot the gun with some Goex at the least, or some Swiss, just to eliminate that as a variable. It could be that it is very dirty burning. ?

The size of your flash-hole should not be so small that it clogs easy. A very small flash hole can make the gun "prone" to miss fires, once it gets dirty. When a flintlock does get very dirty, (way way after four shots) and it fails to fire, the problem usually is crud in the flash hole blocking it. A little pick, like a nipple pick, is good to have when you are firing many shots. Judging from how the flashole "seems" or looks to be so low, it may also be very small. Need a better pic.

A little rust in and around the pan is okay. I have a very expensive gun, and I don't sweat any rust in that area. I'd rather keep the pan and area around the flash free of oil, and get a little rust, rather than having my powder contaminated by oil. (never over-oil your lock) Who made your Baker? Have always wanted one. Locks that are not of very high quality, can be troublesome on a flintlock rifle. Or smoothbore.

A couple of clarifications. Could you take a good pic of the location of the flash hole? Also, when the gun refused to fire, was it the pan that refused to flash, or did the gun not fire, even when the pan flashed?

A flintlock is a reliable weapon. The caplock was an improvement for military use, for several reasons, but a cap-lock is not more reliable than a flintlock. Just have to have all your ducks in a row.

The pan should be flush with the barrel. The flash hole should be centered on the top edge of the pan, if you look at it level across the top edge of the pan you should see about half of the flash hole, sometimes referred to as the sunrise position. The flash hole should be about .065 to .075 inch in diameter. If the flash hole is down low in the pan it causes a fuse effect, whoosh bang kinda thing. It can be fixed by relocating the flash hole to the proper place by installing a vent liner. You do not need 4f powder to make it work, the same granulation you use for the main charge will work, just lay a small amount, just enough to cover the bottom of the about 1grain deep. The more powder you put in the more fuse like it will become. Most of the issues you described are fairly easy to fix. Hope this helps.

Heir Kommt Die Sonne said:

It's a Indian made one, I bought it from Veteran arms .

Click to expand...

OK so the problem may be that the lock needs to be inlet more OR, it could be that the side of the barrel where it's supposed to have a flattened portion for the touch hole to lock/pan interface is either a) the wrong angle or more likely b) just not big enough. A small flat on a round barrel deflects more of the flash upwards, while a bit larger flat will cause more of the flash to enter the hole. Here is a crude illustration



As for the lock here are some photos, but may be tough to see what we are saying about the fit.



Finally, you may want to contact Veteran Arms and ask if they will reharden the frizzen. If not..., you will need to have it done, and with some Cherry Red hardening compound. My experience with other India origin locks is they will take a hardening, and have enough carbon, but the old Kasenit, and replacement product Cherry Red, does not hurt. Not all sparks are the same temp and so you should get a bit hotter sparks after the procedure. Lastly, you should NOT be using 4Fg to prime your piece. The Baker was a combat rifle, and would've primed with "rifle" powder from the cartridge. This isn't that safe, so simply use 3Fg in a horn to prime. 4Fg is for smaller pans on smaller locks.

LD

Heir Kommt Die Sonne said:

If you could show me a picture of a quality flintlock pan and lock gap with flashhole, it'd help me greatly.

Click to expand...

Your problems can be so simple to solve that you shouldn't give up yet.
There's a site with advice and photos including firing an India musketoon that the author bought.
He shows how to position the flint to improve sparking and other helpful tips in two articles.
I would try a pound of commercial powder even if only to prime with since the author believes that most ignition issues usually involve powder, flint and fouling.
Below is the musketoon vent.


Here's an original Brown Bess vent from another page on the same web site.



His pages include:
Shooting and Maintaining a Flintlock --->>> http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Musketoon/ShootingTheFlintlock.html

My French Model 1777 Cavalry Musketoon Reproduction Made in India --->>> http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Musketoon/Musketoon1777.html

Here's a diagram that shows how to sharpen a flint.

My Brown Bess had a low flash hole, I was able to attack it with a small carbide cutter (dremel would work good) and lowered the floor of the pan next to the hole, which made the hole higher. !!! I also made a slight "pocket" in the middle of the pan, which kept/keeps most of the prime charge in the middle of the pan. I also "coned" the flash hole, on the outside. She goes off right quickly now, though not as fast as my Jeager. Sometimes, "almost".

The only time my Bess ever failed to fire, aside from when it was very dirty after many shots, working up loads, was in front of about 200 people. I was at an Appleseed shoot, and we thought it would be cool to shoot the red-coat target with a Brown Bess, for/in the opening ceremonies. Yep, total silence, giant crowd of people watching....CLICK! I instantly and at warp speed re-cocked, closed the pan, and BOOM. Oh the humanity.

I single handedly gave flintlocks a bad name, to at least 100+ of the people watching. However, I did nail the Redcoat dead-center.

arcticap said:

Your problems can be so simple to solve that you shouldn't give up yet.
There's a site with advice and photos including firing an India musketoon that the author bought.
He shows how to position the flint to improve sparking and other helpful tips in two articles.
I would try a pound of commercial powder even if only to prime with since the author believes that most ignition issues usually involve powder, flint and fouling.
Below is the musketoon vent.
View attachment 964856

Here's an original Brown Bess vent from another page on the same web site.

View attachment 964857

His pages include:
Shooting and Maintaining a Flintlock --->>> http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Musketoon/ShootingTheFlintlock.html

My French Model 1777 Cavalry Musketoon Reproduction Made in India --->>> http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Musketoon/Musketoon1777.html

Here's a diagram that shows how to sharpen a flint.

View attachment 964870

Click to expand...

Boy, on both those guns, the flash holes are certainly "too low". On the Bess, I see the hole is of generous size, which is good. On both guns, shaking the gun a bit, with it tilted to the right, would shift the powder away from the touch hole, and give faster ignition. And again, a "low-hole" won't really effect reliability, just lock-time, or ignition time.

I don't think one would ever see such low touch-holes on a sporting gun of the time, but I don't imagine that the military was concerned very much about lock-time. I know they weren't very concerned about reliability, and that it was expected that during a volley fire, that a large per-cent of the arms were not going to go off.

Found this pic of an original Baker. Look at where the flash-hole sits. ! Can also see it is of "generous" size. Hope it's "legal" to post pics off that site.

Ugly Sauce said:

Boy, on both those guns, the flash holes are certainly "too low". On the Bess, I see the hole is of generous size, which is good. On both guns, shaking the gun a bit, with it tilted to the right, would shift the powder away from the touch hole, and give faster ignition. And again, a "low-hole" won't really effect reliability, just lock-time, or ignition time.

I don't think one would ever see such low touch-holes on a sporting gun of the time, but I don't imagine that the military was concerned very much about lock-time. I know they weren't very concerned about reliability, and that it was expected that during a volley fire, that a large per-cent of the arms were not going to go off.

Click to expand...

There's a lot of different opinions and even research has been done on touch hole position.
This ALR thread is very revealing by dispelling some myths and suggesting that other factors can be at work which are more important. --->>> https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24043.0

One or two posts stand out in particular.
One by Jim Kibler and another by Larry Pletcher who did some research.

Jim Kibler posted:

"Lower is fine regarding ignition speed. It can be completely in the bottom of the pan. It's a myth that this will result in slower ignition speed. Reference Larry Pletcher's testing. His testing also proved that it's faster to have powder right against the touch hole. The fuse effect slowing things down is not valid. Actually I'm pretty sure he found ignition speed to be faster when priming was directly against the vent! "

Heir Kommt Die Sonne said:

I tried out my Baker a few weeks ago but after 4 shots, I couldn't get the 5th one off.

Click to expand...

I have limited flinter experience but if it fired the first 4 times and not again and you did not make sure the touch hole was clear with a vent pick, then I would suggest that is where you need to start to solve your misfires.
https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/traditions-flintlock-tool-kit

arcticap said:

There's a lot of different opinions and even research that has been done on touch hole position.
This ALR thread is very revealing by dispelling some myths and suggesting that other factors can be at work which are more important. --->>> https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24043.0

One or two posts stand out in particular.
One by Jim Kibler and another by Larry Pletcher who did some research.

Jim Kibler posted:

"Lower is fine regarding ignition speed. It can be completely in the bottom of the pan. It's a myth that this will result in slower ignition speed. Reference Larry Pletcher's testing. His testing also proved that it's faster to have powder right against the touch hole. The fuse effect slowing things down is not valid. Actually I'm pretty sure he found ignition speed to be faster when priming was directly against the vent! "

Click to expand...

Wow! Never heard that before. I see I have some experimenting to do!

[QUOTE

Jim Kibler posted:

"Lower is fine regarding ignition speed. It can be completely in the bottom of the pan. It's a myth that this will result in slower ignition speed. Reference Larry Pletcher's testing. His testing also proved that it's faster to have powder right against the touch hole. The fuse effect slowing things down is not valid. Actually I'm pretty sure he found ignition speed to be faster when priming was directly against the vent! "[/QUOTE]

This may be true with his gun, but with mine they are slower with the vent covered.
I've been shooting a flinter for 30 years and have tried about everything.
The best method for me is to clean the flint, frizzen and pan with a cloth before loading the barrel. Check that the flint is razor sharp with my finger nail. Load the barrel. Pick the vent. Load the pan nearly full leaving about 1/8 inch gap between the pan powder and the vent.

I was giving a shooting demonstration with my flintlock rifle one time, after loading and firing, one spectator said out loud to me that it was impossible for a flintlock to fire that fast. He said that my rifle had to have some kind of electronic ignition because a flintlock can't fire that fast.
I brought him in front of the crowd, showed him my rifle and loaded and fired it again while he watched up close.
He just walked off mumbling about how a flintlock can't fire that fast.

You may have to experiment to find out what works best for your gun.

SC45-70

That is true, flinters all respond differently to different loading techniques. One thing for sure, I've never purposely covered my flash hole with powder, then shot it to see what would happen. Every deer I've shot, I had checked the position of the prime several minutes before, and carried the rifle level until the opportunity arose. It's always made sense to me that the flash would set off the main charge faster than the powder burning it's way to the charge, although I would assume that would be pretty fast. Perhaps the flash even blows that powder away from the hole. ? But now, I have to try it! Thanks alot Arcticap!!!!

It sure is opposite from what one would think. I'm not sure, or don't think I've ever seen an expensive rifle built with the flash hole low in the pan. Seems odd that an awful lot of very experienced rifle builders buy into a myth. ? But yeah, before I pass judgement I'll try that. Need to unload the flinters now that season is over anyhow.

I have done all those things he talked about, from filling the pan, piling powder against the touch hole etc. Then as I learned what works on my stuff I began using less and less priming powder until I found the sweet spot which happens to be just enough to cover the bottom of the pan. I also use the same stuff as the main charge, in my case 3fff. Ignition has been 99% effective with the rare occasion that it doesn't go boom.

I have always used ffffg for pan powder. The courser the powder the more likely for misfires as the finer powder in the pan will ignite easier.

What you say may be true Oldschool Shooter but i doubt that you, or any one else for that matter, will be able to tell the difference in ignition speed. I have even used Null B as a pan powder, which is like flour, but could not tell the difference. I find the finer powders like Null B and 4f tend to absorb moisture more readily. Since i have been priming with 3f I have not had a problem of the pan powder turning to soup.

Then there's that. ! Can human senses detect the difference? I can sometimes tell if I had a longer ignition than usual. But, a flintlock shooter "should" have better than normal follow-through, in which case delayed ignition won't matter. It's always nice when it goes off fast, but we can't be flinching.

I would claim 100% ignition from my Jeager, when it is clean, and I've gone through my "routine" as far as cleaning and loading, prior to hunting. It is also extremely fast, and if you blind-folded someone and had them shoot the gun, I don't believe they would guess it's a flintlock, unless they were an experienced flintlock shooter. My Brown Bess, other than the time at the Appleseed shoot, has never failed to fire when clean, but when dirty and working up loads, trying different patches, lube, etc., I have had some flashes in the pan. Re-prime and pick the vent, and she behaves.

My priming horn has 4fg in it, and 4fg has always worked fine for me, but when I carry my Remington Navy or 1860, I just prime with 3fg as that's what is in the pistol flask. (actually a small horn with spout) Then I don't have two horns hanging off me.