Laser/light for HD pistol.

My opinion is the torch stuck on the gun is just about next to useless.

if you need to light something, you would be pointing the gun at whatever it is. Not a good situation AT ALL if it ends up being a child or disabled person, for example.

A light is good to have but carry a light separate from the gun. Gun mounted lights are for range commandos.

herrwalther said:

I suspect that is by design. I believe Surefire was the first to use that paddle design for weapon lights, but not sure. My weapon light is also a Streamlight. To turn on the light, you push forward on a button. The opposite direction of a trigger. And the buttons are on both sides of the front trigger guard, a relatively far distance away from the trigger.

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Absolutely is by design, I don't think any of these companies want a potential lawsuit for an ND on their hands as it doesn't take much to shop for an anti-gun judge to allow a case to proceed and even if the company wins a lawsuit, they've got to pay big bucks for lawyers.

If we hear over the next few years more and more unjustified police shootings with the weapon light excuse, the manufacturers are going to either stop selling to police or start making lights that are so cumbersome or complex to turn on in order to reduce the potential for an ND that they'll become more of a liability to use for self defense than an asset.

JCooperfan1911 said:

My opinion is the torch stuck on the gun is just about next to useless.

if you need to light something, you would be pointing the gun at whatever it is. Not a good situation AT ALL if it ends up being a child or disabled person, for example.

A light is good to have but carry a light separate from the gun. Gun mounted lights are for range commandos.

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Wrong on every count. The real advantages to having a weapon mounted light FAR exceed any and all perceived disadvantages.

TTv2 said:

One thing I do have to ask is, how many burglars and home invaders are packing rifles instead of handguns these days to where that's a legit thing to be concerned about?

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Where did I say that? I didn't. My point is that people train for 7yds but there is no guarantee that whatever situation they encounter will fall into that square box they've got worked out in their head. There is nothing keeping anyone from shooting at you from 20yds away, no matter what they're armed with. Did I plan on being confronted by some A-hole with a deer rifle? No. That is the point.

TTv2 said:

Again, I see an obsession with "The Best" as you are stating that nothing surpasses a red dot w/ a weapon light on a home defense pistol for no light/low light situations. That's a pretty good setup, possibly the best, but I don't see it as necessary, I don't see it as far and away superior to justify the cost.

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No, I just found what works better. Three dots are better than standard irons. Night sights are better than that. A red dot is better than night sights. What you do is up to you. If you're happy with "good enough", that is your prerogative. If you're going to poke fun at others' choices to make yourself feel better about your compromises, you're gonna get pushback. If you want to be taken seriously, leave out the snide comments about movies and exaggerated examples.

TTv2 said:

Of course every time I make that argument, the knee jerk reaction is always along the lines of "is that all your life is worth to you?"

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Not from me. We all have to make our choices based on our own circumstances.

TTv2 said:

The point of self defense should not be how much you're willing to spend to have "The Best", it is to have the tools available that give you a significant advantage that way you can live and enjoy the rest of your life as you see fit and use your money to facilitate that enjoyment.

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Who said anything about money spent? As I already said, my bedside handgun is a 1911 with night sights and a light. No red dot and no laser. A red dot would be a "better" setup but I'm not willing to put in the time to get good with one. I have a hard time finding the dot with a mini reflex. So I stick to night sights. You'll have a more productive discussion if you can shed that chip on your shoulder when it comes to money.

TTv2 said:

I have a Streamlight that uses a kind of paddle like button. Tilt the paddle counter-clockwise for a momentary one that when you release a spring pushes the paddle back to the off position, push clockwise and it clicks into place for constant on. The paddle extends back a bit past the front of the trigger guard so your trigger finger can manipulate it, but the difference between curling your finger to pull a trigger and straightening your finger to diddle a switch is obvious.

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I wouldn't get in the habit of using my trigger finger to manipulate the light. At some point, you're gonna need both light and a flying bullet.

JCooperfan1911 said:

My opinion is the torch stuck on the gun is just about next to useless.

if you need to light something, you would be pointing the gun at whatever it is. Not a good situation AT ALL if it ends up being a child or disabled person, for example.

A light is good to have but carry a light separate from the gun. Gun mounted lights are for range commandos.

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I get what you're saying but I don't agree in a home defense setup. For most people, operating a gun and separate flashlight ups the difficulty factor quite a bit, and it's not really workable at all on a long gun which I think is a better home defense weapon versus a handgun in about 99% of situations. If you have good trigger discipline a light on an AR with a pressure pad is a pretty slick setup and very safe. In terms of concealed carry, I tend to agree with you that a separate flashlight is probably a better choice although I will admit to rarely carrying a flashlight. Unlike a bump in the night in your own home, when you're out and about you shouldn't be drawing gun with your light on it to identify something.

CraigC said:

I wouldn't get in the habit of using my trigger finger to manipulate the light. At some point, you're gonna need both light and a flying bullet.

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Which is why I like how Streamlight WMLs are setup. You can turn on the light with your trigger finger. Or the thumb of your support hand. Or however you grip it. Ambi controls on a light are a plus in my book. A pressure switch on a long gun is even better. As long as it doesn't break on you like it did on one of mine.

In my book a weapon mounted light is mandatory for any defensive firearm, handgun, rifle, or shotgun. It's dark out 50% of the time, bad guys love the night, and the ability to ID a target as friend/foe is paramount.

Here is the nightmare scenario... It's 3:37am Sat morning. You hear a noise. You wake up, somewhat still groggy, and there is shuffling sounds coming from the living room, then a bang of something hitting something else, and a muffled voice cursing. (someone is in the house) You grab your light equipped handgun, rifle, whatever... and wake the wife to have her call 911. As you round the corner of the hall to check things out, you see the shadow of a figure of a man who appears to be unhooking the big screen TV in the living room. You bring the weapon up to a low ready, pointing at his feet. (ready to raise and engage if needed), You hit the light for a second, telling him to get out of your house, the police are on the way. It's your 22 year old college son, home for a surprise visit, and he was trying to hook up his Playstation without waking you...

Had you no light, been scared, and fired at a dark figure you thought was a thief, this could be the tragedy of your life.

Had this been a dangerous situation, you could come up to the target from that low ready in a fraction of a second to protect yourself, and your family.

Yes, you also need a hand held light, for those times when you need light, without a weapon. You need both.

My daily carry gun had a mounted light... plus I carry a light in my pocket. I practice what I preach.

https://imgur.com/cST2GuW

Space Ghost said:

In my book a weapon mounted light is mandatory for any defensive firearm, handgun, rifle, or shotgun. It's dark out 50% of the time, bad guys love the night, and the ability to ID a target as friend/foe is paramount.

Here is the nightmare scenario... It's 3:37am Sat morning. You hear a noise. You wake up, somewhat still groggy, and there is shuffling sounds coming from the living room, then a bang of something hitting something else, and a muffled voice cursing. (someone is in the house) You grab your light equipped handgun, rifle, whatever... and wake the wife to have her call 911. As you round the corner of the hall to check things out, you see the shadow of a figure of a man who appears to be unhooking the big screen TV in the living room. You bring the weapon up to a low ready, pointing at his feet. (ready to raise and engage if needed), You hit the light for a second, telling him to get out of your house, the police are on the way. It's your 22 year old college son, home for a surprise visit, and he was trying to hook up his Playstation without waking you...

Had you no light, been scared, and fired at a dark figure you thought was a thief, this could be the tragedy of your life.

Had this been a dangerous situation, you could come up to the target from that low ready in a fraction of a second to protect yourself, and your family.

Yes, you also need a hand held light, for those times when you need light, without a weapon. You need both.

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Or, because I live in America, and I've paid my electric bill, I could turn on the lights in the living room, because I know where the room lights are, and I know where the light switch is.

We're not in an abandoned warehouse.

CraigC said:

Where did I say that? I didn't. My point is that people train for 7yds but there is no guarantee that whatever situation they encounter will fall into that square box they've got worked out in their head. There is nothing keeping anyone from shooting at you from 20yds away, no matter what they're armed with. Did I plan on being confronted by some A-hole with a deer rifle? No. That is the point.

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Fair enough, a person who has a strong arm can throw a brick at you from 20 yds and still be a deadly threat. I already said I agree people should train at longer distances.

No, I just found what works better. Three dots are better than standard irons. Night sights are better than that. A red dot is better than night sights. What you do is up to you. If you're happy with "good enough", that is your prerogative. If you're going to poke fun at others' choices to make yourself feel better about your compromises, you're gonna get pushback. If you want to be taken seriously, leave out the snide comments about movies and exaggerated examples.

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You said you found "no better setup" than a weapon light and a red dot, which if you cannot consider a different set of accessories to be better then you consider that setup to be the best, at least for you. My exaggerated examples are just that because others like to formulate these unlikely scenarios to justify certain things. The odds are that your house will never be invaded while you are home by someone who is armed or otherwise a threat to you. Those are just the odds, it's not a guarantee, thus people own guns for home defense in case it doesn't go that way.

Who said anything about money spent? As I already said, my bedside handgun is a 1911 with night sights and a light. No red dot and no laser. A red dot would be a "better" setup but I'm not willing to put in the time to get good with one. I have a hard time finding the dot with a mini reflex. So I stick to night sights. You'll have a more productive discussion if you can shed that chip on your shoulder when it comes to money.

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I understand your opinion on red dots and lights being the best, as I said they may be, my opinion is someone who puts the time and effort in to improving with their home defense gun doesn't need a red dot that costs $300, it's not going to make them that much better when the typical distances inside the home are so short. You're an outlier with your long home, but if the longest distance in someone else's home is only 10 yards in one particular area, do you really feel they need a red dot for that? Unless they have some condition where they can't see iron or night sights well in any light, I feel a person can do just fine without one.

JTQ said:

Or, because I live in America, and I've paid my electric bill, I could turn on the lights in the living room, because I know where the room lights are, and I know where the light switch is.

We're not in an abandoned warehouse.

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And what if the threat is between you and the light switch. When seconds count, the switch could be 10ft away. The power could be out. This time last year we had a huge wind storm come through and the power was out for a week. Some folks much longer. You don't think that's an opportunity for criminals? The power could've been cut. As I said before, you've now taken your hand and your attention away and onto something else, only to illuminate yourself and affect your own night vision. As soon as you step away from the switch, you no longer have any control over that light source. Sorry but this is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard against a weapon mounted light.

TTv2 said:

I understand your opinion on red dots and lights being the best, as I said they may be, my opinion is someone who puts the time and effort in to improving with their home defense gun doesn't need a red dot that costs $300, it's not going to make them that much better when the typical distances inside the home are so short. You're an outlier with your long home, but if the longest distance in someone else's home is only 10 yards in one particular area, do you really feel they need a red dot for that? Unless they have some condition where they can't see iron or night sights well in any light, I feel a person can do just fine without one.

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I'm talking about what works best and you keep bringing up money. There are several advantages to a red dot other than accuracy at distance and I've already outlined them. I also do not presume to know or speak of others' financial situation or their "needs". You said a red dot was overkill and I explained exactly why someone might choose to employ one. All you've done since is a whole lot of gymnastics to justify your own choices. You can't make up for a red dot's advantages by training. Maybe you need to actually try one?

CraigC said:

And what if the threat is between you and the light switch.

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Certainly possible, and we could "what if" hundreds if not thousands of possible scenarios where a light on your gun may helpful, but in the scenario Space Ghost proposed, which is the one I was answering, that wouldn't be the case.

Overhead room lights, are non-directional, other than from above. There are multiple entrances to my living room. While possible, it is unlikely the intruder would know where the light switches are in my house, and which one was thrown. The attention of the intruder would be drawn to the source of the light, the ceiling, rather than the light in your hand, which would bring the attention to you.

We can what-if all day long but it will never get around the fact that choosing to flip a light switch over using a weaponlight is giving away many distinct advantages, while gaining none.

SharpDog said:

Note that having a light on your pistol does not prevent you from using a separate light if that is appropriate. This will save some time:

Light Or No Light On A Home Defense Pistol? | The High Road

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Yes this thread and YES that owning one light doesn't mean you own two. SO many arguments not to have a WML as you'll use it wrong. Guns are used wrong all the time, who here is is in favor of getting rid of them?

Let me step back from this - I find I'm no longer giving information to the OP, who was looking for advice on a light/laser on a home defense gun. I gave my advice and linked to sources who have great experience with the non-LE/non-MIL use of firearms for personal defense. The OP can use the information as he see's fit.

What I find myself doing now, is debating my own personal home defense plans with people that clearly live a different experience than I, what I would have considered a typical residential home owner. I've worked through my plan over decades, and studied the pro' and con's of my plan. In most scenarios my plan will work for me. If you have a different plan, and it requires a light on your gun, or body armor, or GAU-8, rock on.

CraigC said:

I'm talking about what works best and you keep bringing up money. There are several advantages to a red dot other than accuracy at distance and I've already outlined them. I also do not presume to know or speak of others' financial situation or their "needs". You said a red dot was overkill and I explained exactly why someone might choose to employ one. All you've done since is a whole lot of gymnastics to justify your own choices. You can't make up for a red dot's advantages by training. Maybe you need to actually try one?

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Geez, you're awfully presumptuous, CraigC, I have tried a red dot on a pistol, my CP33, and I do like it because it's really easy to hit stuff at distance with rapid fire once I figure out where to hold, out to 10 yards tho I don't think I'm any faster or slower with either the dot or the stock sights. Perhaps that's different with a heavy steel frame pistol in a larger caliber. I'm sure there will be some who benefit greatly from a red dot and some who gain nothing from using one on a pistol.

I will not willingly select a HD handgun or rifle without a green laser mounted in a position where I can instantly switch it on and off. I came to this conclusion ONLY by trying one for myself, shooting in low-light conditions, comparing to night sights, etc. Next thing I knew I had them on multiple guns. For me, there are multiple advantages, especially in low-light conditions, but also in daylight situations.

One huge advantage, IME, is that you do not have to focus on the sights in order to maintain a near-pinpoint aim with a laser. You can focus your attention on what the target is doing while maintaining precise aim. Seeing what the target is doing is necessary to help you make the best possible decision about whether or not you must pull the trigger. This would likely be the most important decision that you make for the rest of your life, so I don't want my attention diluted by aiming a gun with iron sights. Others can do whatever they want but my guns will have a laser.

I also enjoy just shooting and plinking with handguns using the green laser outdoors in daylight. My groups are smaller and easier to achieve with the laser than with iron sights, and overall accuracy is better.

A downside to the under-barrel mounting position on most handguns (like the CZ below) is that it flips the bullet trajectory vs. line-of-sight relationship, so you have to make that "Kentucky windage" type of allowance in reverse once you get outside the window of range where the laser is sighted in for bullseye hits. That's not the case if the laser mounts above the barrel (like on the AR-10 below).

TTv2 said:

Geez, you're awfully presumptuous, CraigC, I have tried a red dot on a pistol, my CP33, and I do like it because it's really easy to hit stuff at distance with rapid fire once I figure out where to hold, out to 10 yards tho I don't think I'm any faster or slower with either the dot or the stock sights. Perhaps that's different with a heavy steel frame pistol in a larger caliber. I'm sure there will be some who benefit greatly from a red dot and some who gain nothing from using one on a pistol.

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I would say it is very widely accepted that red dots are faster to acquire than iron sights. It's kinda one of their biggest selling points. I'm old school and I can accept that.

In the dark, that difference is even more significant. Because you're not looking for black or dimly lit tritium iron sights but an illuminated red dot. This should be rather obvious. You are also not having to line up two different objects on two different planes and working out which to focus on. You can also see the red dot with or without the light. Something that might matter if for some reason your light fails you.

Not trying to change direction, but that is one nice collection I6turbo, especially those handguns! Regarding WLs, as I posted earlier I have a TLR4 and find it easy to toggle the switch with my support hand without altering my grip. I try to practice with having it low ready and focusing on laser rather than sights as I present.

I personally choose not to have a weapon mounted light on my HD gun. It's only myself and my wife in the home and we sleep in the same bed. I would know if she's in bed as soon as I wake up. Also, we have large windows in out home and several that are high up or have an arched top are not covered so if there is a moon out there is quite a bit of light in my home at night. Additionally, I have several nightlights that are placed around the home for ambient light. I do have a handheld light on my nightstand and several others throughout the house if needed.

Someone I respect very much does things different. I keep my gun chambered in my handgun safe without a light and he does the opposite, mainly because he has 4 little kids. I posted this video the other day and he talks about weapon lights quite a bit and why he uses them.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...th-navy-seal-grs-officer-jimmy-graham.880318/

JTQ said:

Certainly possible, and we could "what if" hundreds if not thousands of possible scenarios where a light on your gun may helpful, but in the scenario Space Ghost proposed, which is the one I was answering, that wouldn't be the case.

Overhead room lights, are non-directional, other than from above. There are multiple entrances to my living room. While possible, it is unlikely the intruder would know where the light switches are in my house, and which one was thrown. The attention of the intruder would be drawn to the source of the light, the ceiling, rather than the light in your hand, which would bring the attention to you.

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Please keep in mind that the scenario I gave was just ONE example of something that could happen. It does not change the fact that half of the day is light, and half is dark. You have no clue when, or if, you will ever need your firearm, and at that time... where the threat (or threats) will be, in relation to a light source... IF there is one even available at the time.

When things go horribly wrong, you bring your own weapon right? Makes good tactical sense to bring a light source with it... unless you only want to be able to use it effectively (and safely) 50% of the time. By the way, remember the part about bad people preferring to work... at night?

Every defensive weapon, needs a mounted light.

Space Ghost said:

Please keep in mind that the scenario I gave was just ONE example of something that could happen. It does not change the fact that half of the day is light, and half is dark.

Makes good tactical sense to bring a light source with it... unless you only want to be able to use it effectively (and safely) 50% of the time. By the way, remember the part about bad people preferring to work... at night?

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I'm pretty sure I linked to some Tom Givens articles in this thread, but if I haven't, one point he often makes is even if the sun has set, there are very few instances where it is completely dark. There is the moon, the stars, street lights, store lights, various lights in your house, etc. In addition, for a bad guy to attack you there needs to be enough light for him to see you. If he can see you, you can probably see him.

If you've run through your own scenarios, using the light available during various times of the day, and you've determined you need a weapon mounted light for your needs, carry on with your plan.

I'm up every day before the sun rises. Because there are other members of my household that don't have my schedule, I walk through my house with no lights on, every day. In my own scenarios, I don't have a need for a weapon mounted light. Could I come up with a scenario where I'd need a weapon mounted light? Sure. Is it likely - for me? No. I could also come up with a scenario where I could need body armor, and a four member back up team with automatic weapons, but I don't plan for those scenarios either.

I'm not telling anybody not to get a weapon mounted light, or not to use one. All I'm saying is to stop watching the cop shows on TV, or thinking about your LE or MIL experience and the need for a weapon mounted light. A non-LE/non-MIL civilian has different needs. Think through your own circumstances and determine if there is a realistic need for you, as a civilian homeowner, to use a weapon mounted light on your personal gun. Maybe there is a need. However, for the typical residential urban/suburban homeowner, there probably isn't a need for a weapon mounted light. Check for yourself. Whatever works for you is fine. I'm just suggesting to the OP, that he may not need one. Maybe he does.

JCooperfan1911 said:

My opinion is the torch stuck on the gun is just about next to useless.

if you need to light something, you would be pointing the gun at whatever it is. Not a good situation AT ALL if it ends up being a child or disabled person, for example.

A light is good to have but carry a light separate from the gun. Gun mounted lights are for range commandos.

Click to expand...

When was the last time you took low light training? If the instructor didn't expose you to tools that were bright enough to illuminate a room while pointed in a safe direction, they were remiss as someone you were paying.