Shot Placement (Most Vital Spots Ranked)

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Robert said:
Sure, in a perfect one way range. Under stress it's center of mass. Shoot, move off X, assess and re-engage as needed. The head is a very small target and if I'm taking fire I'm more interested in center of mass hits than CNS hits.

I've never been in a gun fight but I've done a lot of combat handgun training. I'm not great, better than average. But I'm holding center of mass on whatever the target is giving me.
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One advantage to "head shot" is that if you are inside it is likely that a head shot would involve shooting at an "upward angle". That upward angle would decrease the chance of hitting an unwanted person behind the threat. Now, a lot depends on your confidence of making that head shot based on your skill, distance and expected movement involved.
 
I like to put it this way to people:

Give them the lid of a baby food jar, let them hold it and get a feel for its size.

Then have them imagine (better if you can physically demonstrate with strings on a target) the lid dangling on a string 15 or 20 feet away and their task is to score a hit on it with their gun. Move the lid on the string to simulate movement of the attacker.

That's actually not far off in terms of relative target size for specific shot placement of things like a brain stem, ideal skull shot, heart, etc.

Especially good for people who like to say things like "shoot them in the knee".

While it is good knowledge of the relative importance of various specific shot placement sites, scoring actual hits is a matter of probabilities and in real life self-defense scenarios you must play the odds wisely to survive.

"COM" is the most effective way to play those odds. The torso is the largest portion of body, it's central to the entire body, and it contains the majority of vital organs.

Which means you're most likely to actually score a hit SOMEWHERE on the body if you aim there, and if you do hit the torso you are more likely to hit something vital in the process.

In some scenarios, yes...a precision shot placement might be the way to go. But those are limited in self-defense scenarios.
 
bubba in ca said:
COM is ok if you are a WW1 conscript shooting with iron sights are 300 yards, it would make you a gut shooter half of the time.
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Well, if you are actually shooting COM which is lower than the Center of Chest (COC) that so many people pass off as COM, then if you hit actual COM, you would be gut shooting all the time as COM is below the diaphragm and so the shot would be in the abdominal cavity, not the thoracic cavity.

Whether you do COM on just the body or on the whole person, the chest and the thoracic cavity are not the center of mass for either.
 
bubba in ca said:
COM is ok if you are a WW1 conscript shooting with iron sights are 300 yards. In the civilian world, it would make you a gut shooter half of the time.
If you can't hit a burglar's head at 10 feet you need some practice. At least you could do the Mozambique drill, 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. Or 1 for the chest, 2 to the head, even better.

Incidentally, I said chest, not body.
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There seem to be a remarkable number of folks posting in this thread who've apparently never experienced the particular feeling that goes through one's entire body the first time when one realizes that the peculiar buzzing noises over one's head are incoming bullets.

Years ago, I became very familiar with a scene wherein a homeowner had delivered a round of full-house 00 down a hallway... from, yes, about 10 feet... toward an (armed) burglar. All 9 pellets went over the subject's left shoulder. But we're all cool, calm and collected on the internet, where time slows down, we perform perfectly in accordance with our training and are able to deliver two aimed shots to the chest and one between the eyes.

If you haven't at least done some force on force training (and right now, using Simunitions-equipped guns is the way to go), you can't really know just how difficult it is to (1) try to acquire an actual sight picture on (2) a human target in motion when (3) you are surprised or least expect contact and (4) the adrenaline thing happens. I've seen highly trained grown men visibly have to fight that initial feeling of panic; not everyone instantly "reverts to their level of training." There's often a fleeting moment of what I would term "adjustment" to one's circumstances, acceptance (that it's really happening) and then adapting and acting. This can be almost instantaneous, but for some it can take a few seconds... or longer. It's ironic; guys come on the internet to criticize how poorly cops shoot (no, I'm not saying in THIS thread) yet claim they themselves will have the wherewithal to deliver deliberate, aimed fire in a lethal force situation.
 
Trauma surgeons talk about penetrating trauma to “the box”—an area outlined on the front of the chest by the nipple line, the clavicles, and the lower edge of the rib cage. This is where the heart and great vessels reside and where penetrating trauma has a higher chance of being lethal (or for self defense purposes, produce a “stop” due to loss of blood pressure).

The area for a stop due to neurological injury is much smaller—I’ve seen many people completely miss the brain even at contact distance.
 
LookAtYou said:
1) Brain Stem.

2) Brain. Specifically from one side to the other, not front to back. Ofc front to back is still horrible tho.

3) Heart.

4) Aorta. Artery with most blood flow.

5) Other Major Arteries (Femoral, Brachial, etc).

6) Lungs. Also right behind rib bones, which if shattered, can cause additional damage.

I'd say past these, while there are certainly important vitals that would be bad to be shot in, like the liver, these take the cake. Maybe I missed some, or have some out of order? I'd say even more specific than COM, the chest (nipple line up to upper-mid chest) in between the nipples is optimal. Say you shoot low or high, you're still hitting vitals. Same for shooting a little left or right.

Factoring in ease of hitting target, bones to cause additional damage, amount of vitals in one area, and close proximity to other vital areas, in between the nipple line from the nipples up to the upper-mid chest seems optimal.

I would aim for the heart area. If you shoot right you hit lung. If you shoot left you hit lung. If you shoot high you can hit aorta or throat. If you shoot low you hit liver (not pictured). If you hit on target you hit the heart. Seems you can't lose. Input?

View attachment 964980
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I agree that "center mass" is the best place to train & aim for as it has the most likely place to hit with some degree of training due to size.

We were taught in the police academy to also consider the pelvic area,as you cannot stand with a hole there,nor if you lose a major part of your upper leg / torso.

So if you start at the " K 5 " as we called it in those day [ look at the old police targets of a man with his hand on his hip -- was supposed to be John Dillinger ] then progress DOWNWARD to the pelvis.

You stand a very good chance of not throwing errant rounds AND of stopping the threat.

Even if that attacker / perp is wearing armor.
 
COM, because you can mis by 1-2 feet, and still have a shot that ends the fight, highest probability IMHO, but I have never seen it or done it and hope I never do either ... if you are a trained sniper, maybe you have another opinion, but for average Joe self defense minded person, COM COM COM
 
This is a newer link to the FBI paper, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK, in 1989.

https://www.americanfirearms.org/fbi-handgun-wounding-factors/

Here's another link which contains the cited references at the bottom of each page.
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

I've often thought it wasn't a bad thing to go back and re-read it every few years. The first copy I received was in a firearms instructor class I attended in '90, in which the FBI had instructors participating, so we were given a lot of FBI training materials with our other manual material. While the paper itself is "dated", it's not like it's become "obsolete".
 
AK103K said:
The head may seem to be a somewhat smaller target, but if you look at it, its really no smaller than COM. You should be practicing shooting as realistically as possible, and as Suarez says, not strive for mediocrity. If you cant reliably make a good headshot while moving at those closer distances, then you need to work on things.
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While I agree with the size reference, there may be a problem with aiming at the head. Think about a head target if the head gets turned, or jerked to the side, just as you shoot. The distance a head can move is greater than what the CoM can move if the hips are the hinge. That is because the head is further away from the hips and covers a larger arc than the chest.
CoM is still a better target.
 
DMK said:
The doctor said every single one of the twelve 158gr lead round nose slugs slid right around the outside of the skull and exited out the back.
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If you are close enough (like this situation) to shoot almost point blank at the head, go low and shoot upwards at about a 30-45 degree angle under the chin (where it meets the neck). This may allow you to take out the spine where it enters the skull without having to deal with the thickness of the skull. That is what defeated the close range shots in this incident.
 
jeepnik said:
Personal experience says whatever part you can see. If it is only the left pinky toe, shoot that. If nothing else it will cause them to bleed a bit. And the left pinkly may lead to bigger parts being visible.
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Don't forget - if the perp is hiding behind a car - LIE DOWN and look for their feet. That may keep them from running away as well as distract them enough to allow their capture.
 
JTHunter said:
If you are close enough (like this situation) to shoot almost point blank at the head, go low and shoot upwards at about a 30-45 degree angle under the chin (where it meets the neck).
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You seem to be imagining that the person is facing the defender, and that his torso is stationary.
 
The upper 1/3 chest between the nipples was our standard desired POI. However, the center mass head may be all that is available, and a shooter must be prepared to exploit this situation, should circumstances dictate. In some cases, if a "non-lethal" shot is all that is available, it may be in the shooter's best interest (depending on situation) to take that shot that may not be normally desired. In other words, if all I can see is the bad guy's foot, I may decide to shoot him in that foot, if the situation is such that I would be better off and he/she would be worse off with a hole in the foot- and if such a bold move wouldn't place others at greater risk.
 
For adequate calibers that works. For weakling rounds a hit on bones can stop a bullet. I know a guy who has the scars from being shot 6 times point blank with a .25 and they all stopped on the breastbone. For subpar calibers I would say that the neck is the best area to aim for as it contains vital arteries and airway, neither of which are a DRT hit but would quickly be effective. A lucky shot on the neck would hit spine and possibly paralyze someone this stopping an attack. Biggest issue is that the target is small, and mouse guns are notoriously hard to aim well.

Another point of discussion for service pistol calibers would be the pelvis/groin. A hit in the pelvis would make a person immobile. Supposedly that shot was taught in the past but I haven’t heard mention of it in a while. That shot would likely be optimal for a person with body armor on their torso.
 
WestKentucky said:
For adequate calibers that works. For weakling rounds a hit on bones can stop a bullet. I know a guy who has the scars from being shot 6 times point blank with a .25 and they all stopped on the breastbone. For subpar calibers I would say that the neck is the best area to aim for as it contains vital arteries and airway, neither of which are a DRT hit but would quickly be effective. A lucky shot on the neck would hit spine and possibly paralyze someone this stopping an attack. Biggest issue is that the target is small, and mouse guns are notoriously hard to aim well.

Another point of discussion for service pistol calibers would be the pelvis/groin. A hit in the pelvis would make a person immobile. Supposedly that shot was taught in the past but I haven’t heard mention of it in a while. That shot would likely be optimal for a person with body armor on their torso.
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So do you think .380 Flat Nose FMJ is sufficient for self defense purposes? Here is link to specific ammo I plan to carry.



https://www.targetsportsusa.com/win...-grain-full-metal-jacket-sg380w-p-109594.aspx
 
WestKentucky said:
For adequate calibers that works.
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What's an adequate caliber? Louis Awerbuck related a story about a 230 grain .45 ACP being deflected by the bill of a ball cap. You simply can't count on anything you can reasonable carry being capable of giving you the fabled one shot stop. You should be carrying something .38 Special or larger that penetrates at least 13 inches the foremost expert in wound ballistics Dr Gary Roberts personally told me that. Even then you can't count on it stopping the fight with one or even multiple hits. Again I am going to reference the FBI's 1986 Miami shootout. Bank robbery suspect Matix was hit in the aorta with a 9mm silvertip at the beginning of the fight. He remained in the fight long enough to kill 4 FBI agents including the agent who shot him.

WestKentucky said:
For subpar calibers I would say that the neck is the best area to aim for as it contains vital arteries and airway, neither of which are a DRT hit but would quickly be effective. A lucky shot on the neck would hit spine and possibly paralyze someone this stopping an attack. Biggest issue is that the target is small, and mouse guns are notoriously hard to aim well.
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I don't think the neck is a good target at all. It's small and while it's probably an easy shot at close range for most people on the square range, I simply don't see it being a viable target in a fight where you are moving and the bad guy is moving.

WestKentucky said:
Another point of discussion for service pistol calibers would be the pelvis/groin. A hit in the pelvis would make a person immobile. Supposedly that shot was taught in the past but I haven’t heard mention of it in a while. That shot would likely be optimal for a person with body armor on their torso.
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A hit to the pelvis isn't as effective as many people think. I've worked traffic accidents where the injured party was walking around outside of the car when I arrived on the scene and it turned out they had a fractured pelvis. It's a heavy bone and I don't think you can count on shattering it and putting someone down with a hit there. However if you hit the femoral artery they will quickly lose enough blood pressure to render them unconscious.

I was taught and I teach COM of what you can see (remember you may not have a clear view of the bad guy, as was mentioned before you may be on the ground and have to shoot under a car at the legs) and continue to fire until the hostile act stops. It's really easy to hit specific spots on the square range, it's not easy at all in a dynamic situation where you are moving and the bad guy is moving. That's a concept that is hard for people to accept until they've done some well planned and executed force on force training.
 
Jeff White said:
I don't think the neck is a good target at all. It's small and while it's probably an easy shot at close range for most people on the square range, I simply don't see it being a viable target in a fight where you are moving and the bad guy is moving
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I couldn't agree more.

I cannot imagine trying to hit the neck of a running man at a short distance.

Jeff White said:
A hit to the pelvis isn't as effective as many people think
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Right. This has been discussed here at some length in the past.

Solid hits to a hip joint are something else.

Jeff White said:
It's really easy to hit specific spots on the square range, it's not easy at all in a dynamic situation where you are moving and the bad guy is moving.
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That's on of the most important differences between range practice and defensive shooting.
 
Plenty of opinions here, and lots of bravado. Heaven forbid that I should attempt to change minds.

However, if you can place your rounds within an imaginary triangle formed by the two nipples and the Adam's apple, and if you have adequate penetration, you are going to do considerable damage to a human attacker, and may just be able to put him out of action before he kills you.

Of course, there are no guarantees.
 
When I was taking gunfighter classes, we trained on how to make thoracic body shots and brain stem shots with rifles and handguns from point blank out to 25 yards. Going through those drills was some of the best training I ever got in how to fire fast and accurately. Spending entire weeks at the range can really sharpen a skill set. But, I am not that good anymore. Not enough time, ammo, or money to practice at that level anymore. Now I focus on what I have the highest chance of hitting: center mass/torso.
 
Jeff White said:
What's an adequate caliber? Louis Awerbuck related a story about a 230 grain .45 ACP being deflected by the bill of a ball cap. You simply can't count on anything you can reasonable carry being capable of giving you the fabled one shot stop. You should be carrying something .38 Special or larger that penetrates at least 13 inches the foremost expert in wound ballistics Dr Gary Roberts personally told me that.
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This is a good question, which you went on to discuss.

The answer is to realize that physics is real and reliable penetration is not really much of a mystery.

Caliber speaks directly to bullet diameter. But concurrent with that is bullet mass. Add velocity to this, and a few other niggling factors such as bullet design and construction, and were cooking with gas.

An adequate caliber is one that can be demonstrated to reliably penetrate to a depth significant enough to ensure a good chance of reaching vital organs.

This isn't to say any given round will do this 100% of the time in all circumstances. Only that it's demonstrated the capability of doing so reliably.

Long discussions on this very thing have been posted elsewhere and is a void thing to think seriously about.
 
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